Episode 10: Sistahs in Sustainability
Charity Gates: Hey, y'all! Thanks tuning in for episode 10 of the Sistahs in Law podcast. I'm your host Charity Gates. This is a podcast featuring intimate conversations with Black women in law. Every other week, we will listen to stories from Black women about their trials, triumphs and tribulations, navigating careers in the legal field.
We made it to the final episode of the season! I have had an incredible time sharing these black women's unique stories with you all and can't wait to share more when we return for season two. For our final episode, I have a super inspiring episode with a Sistah in Law that has been an [00:01:00] inspiration to me throughout my time in law school and beyond.
She gave me opportunity when no one else did. A multi-hyphenate doesn't even begin to encapsulate the being that is Whitney McGuire. When you hear her story, you will be inspired to be true to yourself as well.
Whitney McGuire Esquire is a mother, a New York- state licensed attorney, legal and sustainability consultant and strategist, and co-founder of Sustainable Brooklyn, an organization that disrupts the white washing of sustainability in order to concretize equity in the sustainability movement.
With more than a decade of experience in law and sustainability, she is a pioneer in the field of fashion law and a fierce advocate for the sustainability of communities first and most impacted by environmental and social degradation. In 2013, after graduating law school at the Catholic University of America- Columbus School of Law, Whitney opened her own [00:02:00] law firm to support the sustainability of primarily BIPOC artists and fashion designers. Whitney has held positions in fashion lobbying, the U.S. Federal judiciary, various fashion oriented for profit and nonprofit companies and in law firms. In addition to her work as a mother, attorney and sustainability strategist. Whitney is a co-founder of the record label swiMMMers ear with her husband, multidisciplinary artist, Nelson Nance. Whitney received her undergraduate degree in English and Africana Studies from the George Washington University. So let's get into it.
All right. Hello, Whitney. Welcome to the Sistahs in Law [00:03:00] podcast.
Whitney McGuire: [00:03:00] Hello, Charity! Thank you for having me.
Charity Gates: [00:03:03] Thanks for joining us today. So I like to situate my guests by kind of getting a little bit of background, from their, their history. And I do this by asking the question. What is your origin story and where are you and your people from.
Whitney McGuire: [00:03:18] I love that question. I'm going to start with where my people are from. So I grew up in Dayton, Ohio, both sides, both my mom's side and my father's side were from Dayton. So my, mother's side and I think, on my father's side too, my great-grandparents were from, well, my mother's side Atlanta.
And by way of South Carolina. And then, my grandfathers on my father's side, I think most of them came from Tennessee. I just recently learned that my great grandfather was a sharecropper, which was really I mean, not surprising, but just to hear it firsthand from my living relative, it was really interesting and deep.
So [00:04:00] everyone migrated to the Rust Belt, which is the Midwest. And all worked in the automotive industry. All of my grandfathers worked at GM and the matriarchs either did domestic work or eventually got into education teaching. My grandmother actually worked on the air force base.
So grew up in Dayton, came around mid- eighties into the heart of white flight at that time. My grandparents purchased and built a home with a GI Bill in the mid 1950s and raised their children there. And it was like a predominantly Black middle-class neighborhood. So I remember feeling being surrounded by, you know, older people growing up my grandparents because we lived with them. And I was heavily influenced by the wisdom of my elders.
Charity Gates: [00:04:54] right, right.
Whitney McGuire: [00:04:55] So after I lived in Dayton until I [00:05:00] was 13 and my mother told me one day, Hey, I got to get outta here. My mother's a jazz singer. She's an artist. So she's like, I gotta get outta here. I gotta exhaust another, another circuit. So I'm going out west to Las Vegas and you can either stay here with your dad and go to a school in Columbus, or you can come with me and we can just figure out schools out there.
But I just know that the education system is not great. So it's going to be challenging. And prior to her telling me that I had already begun the process of looking into boarding schools. Like, when I tell you this was not a normal thing for, you know, a Black girl in Dayton but my mother also was a teacher, so one of her students who I really looked up to came back to visit her one day after school.
And you know, I caught up with her and what she was doing. And she, she told me she was going to boarding school and I was like, what is that? Tell me all about it. And that was [00:06:00] how, you know, how I was introduced to the idea of boarding school. And I started the process with my parents' permission they were divorced, so they were really great co-parents. And they let me apply to this program called A Better Chance and a Better Chance is a basically a program that takes kids from inner city or, or lower income communities and sends them to boarding schools or private schools, or really good public schools. So, I applied to ABC. They accepted me. I went through that whole program and ended up applying to the school that actually the student my mom's former student, the school that she went to. And so I, at 14, ended up my mom was in Vegas at the time, and I went to boarding school in Newport, Rhode Island.
Culture shock everything. I experienced it all. It was bizarre, but also a very interesting challenge. The first time I saw different ways that people lived and were [00:07:00] raised and the level of education that honestly rich white kids knew their whole lives. You know? So when I got there, I had to definitely do some catching up academically. And yeah, but it ended up being an interesting experience. I felt safe there, because ultimately I'm like, no one's gonna run up on some rich, white kids on this like campus surrounded by all these beaches, you know, what I mean like, let me like insulate myself in this bubble and enjoy a rare point in my life where I feel safe. So let's see, I ended up being school president my senior year. And I thought that was a really cool accomplishment and then went to college straight after I went to GW. And I went to DC for undergrad, stayed there and worked in several different industries, which I'm sure we'll get into later. And ended up applying to law school!
Charity Gates: [00:07:52] Yeah, I kind of have a follow-up question to your boarding school experience, but I think I'll wait
Whitney McGuire: [00:07:58] That's like a whole book.
[00:08:00] Charity Gates: [00:07:59] Yes. So, you go to this boarding school and then you continue with the traditional path of going to college. How did law school come up? Why did you decide to attend law school? And then why did you choose the law school that you ultimately went to?
Whitney McGuire: [00:08:16] So as a child, I had just like a very healthy sense of responsibility probably it was like too mature for someone my age. But I was always told that I should be a lawyer because I engaged in conversations with people without pretext in terms of how I should defer to their, you know, status or authority.
I just was like, you know, boom boom we're relating cause we're people. Right. And so sometimes that got me in trouble at school. I was definitely in detention a lot, but in other times I just feel like it exposed that propensity to engage in dialogue with people. And to not be afraid to express how I [00:09:00] disagreed with them, not even in a combative way, but just, I, you know, I, I don't ha I don't agree.
And, you know, they wasn't ready. So I was always told I should go to law school. I'd never really made it the focal point. I started considering it when I got to college and I was more active in social justice work. Like I led the NAACP at my college chapter for two years as president I was, and then Delta.
So, you know, that's like a very social justice oriented organization. I led, you know, sit-ins and for it to get our Africana studies major approved, which didn't mean they didn't do till like 10 years later. Um,
audio_only_16778242_Charity_Gates: [00:09:38] And what year was this?
Whitney McGuire: [00:09:39] This is in like 2004.
audio_only_16778242_Charity_Gates: [00:09:42] Wow.
Whitney McGuire: [00:09:44] Yeah. It was wild! You know, like, so I was just like really doing my thing and really just working to, I think I've always been a protective type of person.
Like I hate injustice to my core. I've had interactions with their criminal legal system. Like [00:10:00] my earliest memories of seeing my father was visiting him in prison. So I have had these, you know, very intimate connections with the criminal legal system, but I always felt like just like the education system it was really too overwhelming to even feel like I could make a difference in it. So I just kind of like focused on social action and community service and you know, more localized ways to care. But I graduated in 2008 and you know what happened in 2008, there was this crazy recession. And I was like, this is nuts.
Like I'm seeing like my friends who are so smart and so dedicated to their work and they had these offer letters for like months before and they're just getting rescinded and people are like, whatever. I mean, it was, it was crazy. I had, no, I didn't have the option to move home because I've moved so many different places in my life, it's hard for me to even pin down what home, really where it is. And if I did move in, like with my mom, you know, I would definitely [00:11:00] have to have some financial, I had some financial responsibilities at the time, so, I needed a job. And all the fellowships I applied to, I had to apply for Teach for America.
I didn't get anything. And I was like, well, what's happening? That was the first time I was like rejected from things. I feel like up until that point, my intelligence and also finesse got me a really, you know, got me in pretty good positions academically. But this is the first time where I'm entering a pool where everyone's trying to go back to school now. Everyone's trying to figure out what's the safety net cause jobs are not what's up right, now. Charity, when I tell you that I'm always blessed. Like, I, it was like four days before graduation. I had a job interview with a headhunter. I didn't even know what a head hunter was. She thought I was impressive, referred me to a law [00:12:00] firm.
It turns out this law firm is pretty well -known in the tax industry and labor industry. I sat down for an interview with them thinking I was going to be like an assistant or something. They were like, oh no, this is for a paralegal position. I didn't know what it was. I had no idea what a fucking paralegal was.
So I'm like, just like speaking to them, talking about my experiences like, what else am I going to speak about? Like, I've never worked in a law firm or in a legal capacity. They hired me offered me more money than I ever expected I would be making as a 22 year old. And it's still honestly, wasn't enough to really sustain myself.
But at that time I was like, Wow. I've never seen this much money. They paid me quickly, learned that I didn't know what I was doing and I was laid off within nine months. And that was like a really interesting experience of like, how to handle these new responsibilities and just like everything. But it was also like, I was basically doing the same thing that those associates were doing and they made like [00:13:00] five times as much.
Charity Gates: [00:13:01] Right, right.
Whitney McGuire: [00:13:02] maybe I should start thinking about going to law school. But I also have had this very strong artistic side and kind of wanted to lean into that and go to design school. So I ended up working at another law firm very soon after and I think that solidified like my work ethic got a lot better and I solidified like, okay, I'm going to go to law school.
I'm going to do this. And it was not an easy process because as I was applying to law school I'm entering a law school with a pool of people who were also trying to go back to school, people who had just recently lost their Wall Street jobs or, you know, finance jobs. So it was an oversaturated market, but the last school that I applied to, I got it.
And that was Catholic.
Charity Gates: [00:13:50] Wow. That's an incredible journey to law school. And now I want to ask my follow-up now that you've given the background story on that, but since you [00:14:00] had that experience of going to a boarding school when you were much younger and having that culture shock of being in an elite institution, how do you think that kind of prepared you for the law school experience?
Whitney McGuire: [00:14:14] It definitely prepared. It prepared me for undergrad and law school because predominantly white institutions function differently, which is they just do. So I think it just prepared me for in so many ways to just like, know how to maintain my. To know how to stay true to myself in an institution where I am one probably the only one I was the only dark skin, Black girl in my class.
Charity Gates: [00:14:40] Wow. Okay.
Whitney McGuire: [00:14:42] But I didn't want to be anything but that, you know, like, I, I didn't want to be anything but who I am. Of course, I would have loved to have more classmates who looked like me, but you know, that didn't happen. And it's not like I didn't fight for that in undergrad. Like, trust me, I was definitely fighting [00:15:00] for retention rates of Black students.
I just did a lot of advocacy work in undergrad. So I think if anything boarding school kind of like annoyed me to the point where it's like, something's got to change in these institutions. And I shouldn't be the only one who has this experience.
Charity Gates: [00:15:16] Right, right. It led to your early social justice spirit, social justice warrior.
Whitney McGuire: [00:15:22] Yeah.
Charity Gates: [00:15:23] So kind of skipping ahead. If you had any advice for yourself back in law school, what advice would you give young Whitney?
Whitney McGuire: [00:15:31] Keep your head up. I know that things are very difficult right now, but within 10 years, your classmates will be looking at your career in awe.
Charity Gates: [00:15:42] Hmm,
Whitney McGuire: [00:15:42] And you will be proud of yourself.
Charity Gates: [00:15:45] That's powerful. Yeah. And speaking of your classmates being in awe, you took a pretty diverse journey after, after law school. Can you describe your journey post-grad and what your current position entails?
[00:16:00] Whitney McGuire: [00:16:01] Yeah, I think my my journey post- grad, because I focused on fashion law since my 1 L year. And no one was checking for that. No one knew what it was. I guess like, because I was following a passion of mine, situated myself in two deeply exclusionary industries. So I found myself trying to navigate both at the same time and so I graduated without a job. I graduated with no offers , and had to take the bar exam that summer. And because I didn't have a job and wasn't able to sustain myself financially, I was stressed. I didn't know how I was going to feed myself, let alone pay for the bar exam. And so I was just like focused on these like steps that they said, they said, I have to do this.
So I've got to do it, even though I really need to be working right now. And it was so bad. It was like, so I was so broke that I had to take [00:17:00] the bar exam and handwrite it because that was the only way I could take it at the Javits Center in New York City, as opposed to going to Albany or, you know, whatever the other places are to take the bar exam for out-of-state students, because remember at the time I was in DC.
So I knew that I had friends in New York who I could stay with for free, but if I took in Albany I would have to get a hotel. They don't pay for that. I would have to get transportation out there. I was like, how, how I felt like if I can't even afford to take the test to be the profession that I just spent, like three years studying, what is happening now?
I'm like, deeply exclusionary.
And you know the hustle because I see it in you, you know. I, I see that same hustle. Like I'm going to go to these symposia, I'm going to do, I'm going to organize these events, I'm going to intern for the best companies I'm going to, you know, put my resume in many different people's hands, have coffee, have lunch, have [00:18:00] tea, you know, follow up, do all the things for years and nothing.
And I just felt like afraid. So I took the bar. I sat for the bar wasn't in the best mental state, so I did not pass it the first time. And I moved at the same time, I lost my apartment. So I had to move somewhere very quickly. And I called one of my sorority sisters in New York and I said, Hey, I told her the whole thing.
And she said, don't worry about it you're coming to stay with me in New York, welcome to New York! And I moved in there, rent- free. Her home, like beautiful three- story brownstone, you know, and I stayed there for six months. I also got a job at a furniture store because of course I never really veered too far away from my love of design.
And so I had kind of been honing that skill on the side when I was in law school as well. It was enough to get me hired at a pretty cool furniture store in Soho. [00:19:00] And that was how I sustained myself, paid my bills and paid for the bar exam the second time, which I passed, because I wasn't worried about how I was and feed myself. And I was introduced to one of my favorite artists at the time after her show and long story short because New York is. Things happen quickly in New York. I come home to my apartment and she's sitting on my couch with my roommate because she happened to have like a vintage store in our apartment. And she's like having a styling consultation and we get to talking and she's like, look, I'm in this I'm in a lot of different contracts that I don't understand, and I'm not happy with, you know, so-and-so and I just want to know what my options are.
Is that something you do? And I was like, you know what? Fashion law, entertainment law, all of these have this nexus of intellectual property. And also even deeper because personally it's about protecting Black artists' work for me, you know? [00:20:00]So I was like, yeah, this and I was very transparent with her.
I was like, I haven't been sworn in. This will be my, my first like official case I'm working on post grad. And so I didn't charge her like the of course no where near my hourly rate right now. But she ended up being very satisfied with how I interpreted the contracts for her. It was, you know, education was always something I was interested in.
So I realized very quickly that if I'm going to be supporting artists who are in these contracts who don't understand their agreements, I have to be a very good communicator and also figure out how to educate them in a way that they understand what they signed on to. And in a way that they can become even more self-sustaining and confident in negotiating their anything pertaining to their work or their intellectual property. And so I can do this. And so I started doing that on the side, working at the furniture store. I became the general counsel for a [00:21:00] Harlem- based fashion nonprofit for a few months before I got an offer of a lifetime from a judge that I interned for in my first year of law school. And they wanted me to come back to clerk for two years. So I ended up doing that for two years and did a bunch of other stuff as well, because I'm always doing a lot of stuff. Came back to New York and started this law firm and also started Sustainable Brooklyn.
Charity Gates: [00:21:26] Wow.
What an incredible journey like
Whitney McGuire: [00:21:30] And had a kid!
Charity Gates: [00:21:32] Right. You're talking about hustler, spirit slash like just living life.
Whitney McGuire: [00:21:37] Listen, listen. Yes! That's my M.O. like you can't, I, I just. If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it right. Like there's a reason we don't remember the other lifetimes, you know, it's really, it's yours. And I'm all about being a protagonist in my life story and enjoying the drama of it all trying to be minimal [00:22:00] at causing drama, but, you know, interested in and just the dramatics of living.
So. Yeah. I, I bring that to my work and in every way,
Charity Gates: [00:22:10] The protagonists of your own life. I love that.
Whitney McGuire: [00:22:13] Yeah, gotta be !
Charity Gates: [00:22:14] So over the course of your career so far, what has been the best advice you've ever received?
Whitney McGuire: [00:22:22] Honestly, you already know the answer. I've sought answers outside of myself in the process of seeking validation outside of myself, because it really weighed on me this, 10- year period of really having to carve out a career for myself. Like it sounds cool, but every step of the way, I was still applying for jobs because stability is something that I need. Financial stability is something that I need. I wasn't born with it. I had to, and I thought that going to school law school would provide that so that I could do the other things even more gracefully. But you know, that didn't work out. [00:23:00] So, I felt like as I was seeking answers to why, you know, this wasn't or unfolding the way I wanted it to, or the way that I was told it would, if I did X, Y, and Z. Obviously I took these questions to my prayers and I was introduced to, you know, spiritual mirrors for me human form who affirmed that I was on the right path and that I already knew the answers.
And so for me, it was about lessening the noise around me, which practically speaking looked like, not comparing myself to my classmates or colleagues who seemed to have really amazing careers. I had no idea what their lives were like. And for me, my work and my life are so deeply linked that I can't love one and hate the other, you know. I have to, both of them have to be really fulfilling for me.
So that was, you know, an answer that arose after years of like what's happening. I'd say [00:24:00] the worst advice I've gotten was that I needed to focus. And not in a way that I agree, like I needed to focus in, in other aspects, especially spiritually. I definitely needed to get grounded there at the time that I was seeking advice from this person.
But at the time I was just expressing to her how multifaceted I've always been and how I refuse to not entertain these interests in order to benefit, not only myself, but other people. And so I have always, I dunno, I was just, you know, like I don't want to just be in a law firm working as an associate and, just like doing that for five years and then potentially, you know, make it to maybe partner or after 10 years, I don't want to do that. And I don't want to do the other traditional legal routes. I was confiding in her because I thought that what she did was interesting, but, you know, she was in a point in her life where things were a little muddy [00:25:00] and I think her advice just came from maybe her disappointment in herself.
Charity Gates: [00:25:03] Hmm.
Whitney McGuire: [00:25:04] Because for me too. And I tried because I tried to implement that advice. Right. That's how I, I don't think bad advice is bad without trying it, you know, like, unless it just doesn't make sense. Right. Like
Charity Gates: [00:25:16] it's also that.
Whitney McGuire: [00:25:17] dumb. Right. But I was like, okay, maybe I do need to focus.
Like, clearly this person seems like they've got it figured out. They're like general counsel of a really cool fashion company. They do all of these things like, okay, I'm gonna listen to you. And so I try to focus. I try, you know, like, I'm just, I'm just wanting to go for this type of job. And then going to create an cutout, all of the things that.
I've done, the internships, you know, All of that stuff.
I'm going to put to the side that I'm just going to focus on my experience in this one area and that didn't work.
Charity Gates: [00:25:49] Hm.
Whitney McGuire: [00:25:50] And so, it's not until recently that I've seen, like I can support artists in a legal capacity. I can strategically build sustainable [00:26:00] social justice initiatives on a dynamic team and lead a team.
I can you know, attend fashion events as a guest and, and not, I have to not be there like working, you know, like I can do this, you know, a little bit of the influencer life too. You know, like I can do this, I can do it all. And I think that's the most important lesson out of that bad advice for me was just like, you can do it all. Maybe not, well, maybe not everything is done well all the time, but the point is to do it.
Charity Gates: [00:26:30] Yeah. I don't think people understand multi-hyphenates especially in the legal industry.
Whitney McGuire: [00:26:36] Oh my God. I can't. If I had a dime for every blank stare I got to do. I would be a millionaire .
Charity Gates: [00:26:46] I believe it. So thank you for sharing your story and I'm kind of pivoting to your current work life now. Can you talk about some current projects that you're working on that's that's giving you life and that you're [00:27:00] thriving off of.
Whitney McGuire: [00:27:01] Yeah. I mean, I think the, the most. Well right now, Sustainable Brooklyn is an initiative that I co-founded with my co-founder Dominique Drakeford. We worked to bridge the gap between the mainstream sustainability movement and targeted communities that are first and most impacted by unsustainable systems, economically environmentally, socially.
And so everything I do with Sustainable Brooklyn brings me joy and excites me. We throw elemental symposia where we really like get to the root of sustainability from an Afro diasphoric lens. We educate our community about the ways that they've been sustainable. You know, the fact that it's not something that you have to buy into.
In fact, we are the experts of sustainability because we're still here my G you know what I mean? So exactly. So that, I mean, it's a combination of literally everything. Like I [00:28:00] was born and raised a Buddhist. I didn't say that, but yeah, I didn't do that earlier, but now I'm saying it. I was born and raised that way.
So, I've always been around this philosophy of the oneness of self and the environment. Like I am no different than my environment. In fact, what goes on internally impacts what happens to me externally. There's a direct connect. And so that's been my source of.
like logic for the majority of my life. And sustainability,
I felt like, you know, before I founded Sustainable Brooklyn and as I'm, you know, doing this Fashion Law Week with Howard University School of Law students for years, you know, chairing that committee and throwing those events and, you know, lobbying for fashion legislation bills, working on the judicial side, you know, just kind of seeing how all of these fashion law issues are missing the point, which is that there are people who are suffering. It's not just your carbon emissions. It's not [00:29:00] just about, protecting your intellectual property. It's about who is behind this entire industry making it work and why are they suffering?
You know what I mean? So, So I bring all of that to Sustainable Brooklyn and focusing on sustainability from that perspective of, you know, let's focus on people. And in fact, not just other people, but ourselves, like what kind of sustainable ecosystem are we creating internally for ourselves so that we can show up as more responsible human beings in this movement? So most of our work is predicated on that, on that premise that, you know, sustainability starts within. So that excites me. That brings you joy. It's just a natural work for me. And as a part of Sustainable Brooklyn we've organized a team of dynamic groups MoCADA Museum, Protect Black Businesses.
We have Pink Cornrows, Sustainable Brooklyn, obviously, and we got together to start [00:30:00] ideating a tool and educational model that we call Greenish right now TM to be trademarked. What it is is the tool is modeled after the original Green Book, Victor Hugo Green's Green Book, which originated in Harlem.
And it was a directory that listed businesses that were basically safe for Black people to patronize during a time when, you know, we weren't so sure where we'd never really been sure where we were welcomed, but back then it was really like, you know, you could really be not only exposed to embarrassment, but physical harm. And so Victor Green was a former postal worker, so he had a network of postal workers that he activated to solicit businesses to be included in this Green Book. And it was not only a marketing tool, but an essential part of any mobile Black American family. Mobile meaning they had access to automobiles and time to travel and [00:31:00] resources to travel.
So eventually the Green Book expanded into more of a list of destinations or places where if you're on the road in the United States these are places that are safe. And it lost its relevance maybe like 40 years later at the time when the Civil Rights Act was passed and, you know, integration started to be at the forefront of conversations.
Ultimately we had already carved out these alternative spaces for safety for us, but now the line was blurring which we're also kind of seeing now with gentrification. So our tool is bringing the relevance of the need for safety of Black lives into the forefront. And we are harnessing the power that we saw collectively last year.
Where, you know, I call it the white enlightenment 2020, actually my friend called it and I stole that from him.
audio_only_16778242_Charity_Gates: [00:31:53] That's the perfect phrase. I love that.
Whitney McGuire: [00:31:58] And so, we're [00:32:00] harnessing the awareness of the need to prioritize the safety of Black lives. What does that look like? You know, a lot of people didn't know, like we know what that looks like, but these people who are just now becoming aware of the Black experience may not know what that looks like.
In fact, it's their responsibility to know, Right, It's not our responsibility to undo the conditions that have been put upon us. Um, And so, the Green Book Greenish allows these businesses and brand owners to be listed as you know, basically places of public accommodation that are upholding the safety, comfort and agency of Black consumers.
And we've been testing what that means to Black consumers for about a year. We've been having focus groups, you know, researching what safety, comfort and agency ultimately look like and the places that we're focusing on. So we have a list of metrics that we use to generate this data. And these businesses are rated [00:33:00] on a scale of one to five as to whether they're safe and not ultimately. We're just focusing on Brooklyn for now Why we're doing that is because so much of the sustainability movement and these conversations are discussing the scalability of sustainability and how it can scale to have more of an impact. But I believe that sustainability is a localized concept.
It differs from region to region, from person to person. And it's based on what needs are met, you know, and if your needs are met, I feel like you are living a sustainable lifestyle. And if you are also simultaneously meeting the needs of others. That's, you know, not in a... I can see other people being like, well, I mean the mega rich have their needs met and I'm not talking about them.
Um, so yeah, we're focusing on Brooklyn, this localized model, and just focusing on Black Brooklyn businesses. And want the community to also be introduced to a [00:34:00] different way of educating consumers about their power. It's not just about your spending power, but about the fact that you matter, wherever you go and you should be treated that way. So, yeah. I'm excited about that. I don't want to give too much away, but we are doing pretty well. And I just pivoted away from practicing law, which, you know full time I still have a few lingering clients, but for the most part, I just want to focus on consulting and strategy work within sustainability. And the law will always be at the forefront of, you know, my work because legal theory and education is still very important, but want to use the traditional, I would say mechanisms because I've had within, you know, the past few years, deep, deep questions about what justice really is and whether it's even possible in this system.
Charity Gates: [00:34:51] Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's a powerful statement and you're a strong voice in incorporating intersectionality and social [00:35:00] justice in the sustainability movement. And it's become such a buzzword in the industry in multiple industries that it's essentially become a vague term, but how do you define sustainability? What would be your definition for the audience? I know you kind of touched on this before, but what would be your
Whitney McGuire: [00:35:19] I'm actually gonna read Dominique's definition, which I'm adopting as my own. Sustainability and inherently Black and Brown Indigenous regenerative mechanism for living and engaging with nature. It's grounded in an ancestral relationship with the earth, but it has evolved into a resistance of colonial structures. So we can all find wellbeing, joy, and empathy -based healing.
Its philosophy is rooted in mechanisms of celebratory expression of resilience and rhythmic communal flow. So I love that definition and I will just add that practically speaking for me, sustainability is unconditional [00:36:00] care and it looks like everyone's needs being met without those needs without the meeting of those needs being dependent upon their income or labor.
Charity Gates: [00:36:14] Hm.
Whitney McGuire: [00:36:14] So, you know, we can talk about, you know, circular models ultimately I know what it's not, and I think that's more healthy than really like putting a definition to the term. Knowing what it's not is very easy. I know it's not a system of waste or culture of waste. And it's not whiteness, you know. It's not the centering of one group and the propping up of their importance at the expense of everyone else. That's not what it is. And I see, that system being the main driver of how we define sustainability and how we apply it and how we create sustainable solutions. And so I refute that to the core. It's like, literally, if [00:37:00] you're if you having a panel, and your all your panel is just like white or, you know, even like non South Asian, you know what I mean?
Like non dark-skinned people. Like that's what your whole panel consists of, there's no way you're incorporating all the perspectives that really needs to be at the tables, so.
Charity Gates: [00:37:21] Yeah, speak on it. Snaps for everything that has been said so far. And kind of pivoting to your other passion, which is protecting Black artists and, and elevating them. What's your perspective on the increased visibility of Black creatives of all stripes from a legal perspective.
So, especially within the last year, we see the rise of, Black artists, creatives, everybody kind of being elevated and put to the forefront. What is your perspective on that from a legal perspective, thinking about intellectual property, thinking [00:38:00] about exploitation, thinking about all those different ways in which there's like the pro of it, but then the con.
Whitney McGuire: [00:38:07] So, I don't know if this is from a legal perspective or just from a business perspective, but I know that the propping up of Black creatives all of a sudden, I was one of those Black creatives, I probably gained like 4,000 followers last year alone because I was on so many peoples' lists. And I'm like, y'all don't even know what I do where I've been where my mama stay before that, before that my, Instagram was like, y'all knew where my grandmama stay y'all knew it. You know what I mean? Like that was my, those are my friends. Those are people I knew or had like met at some point. And, and then, you know, I just like get all these new followers and I'm like, what's going on?
And so I had to, tap into just being like, slow your roll and, you know, let me let you know what's going on here in setting my own boundaries. But I didn't have like a supply [00:39:00] chain that I had to manage or orders that I had to fulfill or, you know, just like my presence increased, but my work load did not exponentially increase, but for my friends who are designers who have, you know, whose businesses are product-based, they were seeing , a surge of orders and they didn't have the infrastructure in place to fulfill all of those orders. And so then you start to get into like, because people people's enlightenment only goes but so far in a year. You know what I mean?
So like, they're still judging these businesses based on, I don't know, some type of like imaginary, even playing field, where it's like you expect a white -owned business to be at to or a Black- owned business to be as like well-funded well -resourced, you know, as a white -owned businesses, you know, that's tied to generational money or whatever.
Or privilege. I just, you know, like that's just flawed [00:40:00] thinking. And so a lot of these designers and, you know, product-based entrepreneurs started to receive backlash, which I was like, this is crazy at a time when y'all just were talking about Black Lives Matter, but now you want Black people to work for you, you know, like you. And it's like, you don't know that like last month they might've fulfilled a thousand orders and this month they're fulfilling 10,000. You think that just throwing money at them is going to be the support that they need. And it's like, no, they need infrastructure. They need support. If it's a single mom and she has children she also has to fill orders, who's watching the children, who's cooking her food.
You know what I mean? That's the type of localized care the sustainability really requires. So, you know, from a legal perspective, any time, your brand is amplified, you are putting yourself more at risk of being copied. And there are limits to that. You know, like we talked about in the [00:41:00] fashion intellectual property workshop that we presented last weekend, where you know, the difference between knockoffs and counterfeits what you see from during times like this when designers are their designs are more amplified, is that they people counterfeit their product, you know, which is an illegal thing and takes money out of their pockets takes business away from them because their customers are being deceived. Their customers are thinking that they're getting an authentic product, but really they're getting a counterfeit product, which is not a knock off. A knock off is something that is not made to be an exact copy or replica of the original design. It's just an inspired by design. So maybe similar, but it's not meant to cause customer confusion. So when that happens, designers who are underfunded, under-resourced, unsupported, you don't have the resources to fight that in a legal capacity.
And as a lawyer, I know that that process is meant to be slow. [00:42:00] It's meant to benefit the rich it's meant to benefit white people. You know what I mean? So it's almost like I can launch this lawsuit against this company or I can just @ Diet Prada and let the court of public opinion take it away from me.
Charity Gates: [00:42:16] Let's be real.
Whitney McGuire: [00:42:19] So so yeah, you're seeing that where you know, but. I think that the brands who were well-resourced and who were able to survive that surge and who were able to, you know, maybe correct figure it out. I think they're doing well as a result, but they are still. The whole idea that Black Lives Matter is predicated on the fact that slavery was fucked up, right.
Like, can y'all just acknowledge that and acknowledge the fact that that's we're not on any type of even playing field and so your support may look, have to look differently for your Black friends and Black family and for these Black businesses. Okay. You know, your support means like if you're disappointed [00:43:00] with one Black business and how they treat it, you're not gonna to go to a white business or a non-black business. You are going to go to different black business, right. Like that can possibly fulfill your needs. Yeah. So it's, it's an investment. It's a commitment. So, there are cons, there are pros in all of it, but at the end of the day, I think what's missing is, the true understanding of how to respect life in general, not just Black lives, but life in general, and start with the most disrespected groups and, you know, start there.
Charity Gates: [00:43:34] As a foundation.
Whitney McGuire: [00:43:35] As a foundation.
Charity Gates: [00:43:36] Kind of going to future oriented perspectives, what are your hopes for the future of your career and where do you see yourself going? Evolving, doing et cetera?
Yeah.
Whitney McGuire: [00:43:49] Well, I see, I have a, I've always had a very clear vision of myself in my sixties and I see myself being a full-time artist, sculptor, [00:44:00] painter also farmer. I have at that time raised my children and they are flourishing and I'm enjoying life with my husband on our country property and having dinner parties for my friends.
Like my career means that I'm doing me and that's what I'm starting to. That's what I'm starting to create my career to look like. You know, I may get paid to throw those dinner parties, but I'm still going to have fun!
Charity Gates: [00:44:25] Well, let's
Whitney McGuire: [00:44:26] You know, you know I want to, I mean, I'm already stepping away from the practice of law, which is a decade long career for me.
And the strategic work is, you know, this next phase, which is really exciting. And I see that inviting the different aspects of what I'm interested in: art, design, sustainability, all converging right now. So yeah, I mean, I hope that the work that I'm doing is irrelevant in the future. Honestly, I hope that I'm not having to shout from the rooftops Black people matter and also like poor Black people really need the support.
Like, you [00:45:00] know, I mean come on huh? It just like really stressed me out. So, you know, like I really hope that that work is irrelevant. But the realist in me thinks that my great-grandchildren will still be shouting that from the rooftops
Charity Gates: [00:45:18] Yup. Generations of trauma don't go away in one generation, but
Whitney McGuire: [00:45:23] But we're making headway.
Charity Gates: [00:45:25] making headway. We're chipping away. We're away. So thank you, Whitney, for this conversation, like, uhh I'm so excited for the audience to hear your thoughts on everything that we've talked about, but I like to end the podcast with the trademark question, which is who is your Sistah in Law?
And this can be your law school bestie, a colleague that you work with, or a legal queen, like a celebrity legal queen that you just love. Anyone who you'd like to shout out.
Whitney McGuire: [00:45:56] I have so many. Well, I have a few law school besties. But I would [00:46:00] have to really shout out my co-founder Dominique who is not in the legal world, but she is a vital part of my work and, yeah.
I'm shouting her out, I think. Is there anyone else? Well, I I've, it's really interesting that I don't have legal people who like inspired me in a legal capacity because cause I've been so head down focused on my own work for so long. I appreciate legal theorists, legal scholars and people who like Audre Lorde who have comments about our legal system in the most eloquent, poetic ways.
And also like help us think through some of this stuff poetically.
Charity Gates: [00:46:40] The lyricists of the
Whitney McGuire: [00:46:42] I would say you too. My Law. Yes. like, you know, it's all that like, come on. I'm not gonna let someone else go through what I went through, you know? So like as much as I can do to, to be there for, young Black law school graduates who are interested in fashion [00:47:00] law, design, multihyphenate I will be there.
Charity Gates: [00:47:03] Yes. And I appreciate you too for paying it forward.
Whitney McGuire: [00:47:07] Yeah, it's what I do.
Charity Gates: [00:47:10] All right. So where can the audience follow you and keep connected with what awesome work you're doing?
Whitney McGuire: [00:47:17] So you can keep up with me on Instagram.
Charity Gates: [00:47:23] The tool!
Whitney McGuire: [00:47:26] Right?
Charity Gates: [00:47:28] Not the life.
Whitney McGuire: [00:47:29] Right. My my Instagram is Whitney R. McGuire and you can also follow Sustainable Brooklyn at Sustainable BK. Can look up our website, send us an email, talk through some things, if you want to build that and strategically create more localized initiatives here in Brooklyn. Yeah, that's about it.
Charity Gates: [00:47:49] Thank you, Whitney. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
Whitney McGuire: [00:47:53] Thank you Charity. This
Charity Gates: [00:47:57] This was such a refreshing conversation with [00:48:00] Whitney. She is so knowledgeable about so many topics and just has a beautiful existence. I highly encourage you all to continue to follow and support her work both individually, as well as with Sustainable BK. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, please leave us a review so that more people can hear these powerful discussions.
Let us know your thoughts on the episode via social media and follow to get updates on the next episode. As always, please share the podcast with someone who may be interested or who may benefit from these discussions. You can find us on social media on Instagram at Sistahs in Law, on Twitter at Sistahs in Law Pod.
And like our Facebook page. For a full transcript of this week's episode, go to the website@wwdotsistersinlaw.org. As you already know, this is the last episode of the season, but continue to follow us via social media to get updates on when the new [00:49:00] episodes for season two will premiere. Until then please take care of yourselves and enjoy this Black Joy Summer. Peace and love always!
