Episode 9: Sistahs in Art Law & Policy

Charity Gates: Hey, y'all. Thanks for tuning in for episode nine of the Sistahs in Law podcast. I'm your host Charity Gates. This is a podcast featuring intimate conversations with Black women in law. Every other week, we will listen to stories from Black women about their trials, triumphs and tribulations, navigating careers in the legal field.

This week, I have an incredibly imaginative episode with a Sistah in Law that I met through a college friend. We instantly connected on our mutual love for the arts, culture and uplifting diverse voices in the arts world. Also we're both ATLiens who  appreciate a good lemon pepper wing.  When you hear [00:01:00] her story, I'm sure you'll be inspired to live audaciously as well.

 Clark L. Edmond is from Atlanta, Georgia and lives between London and New York.  After receiving her JD from the University of Pennsylvania Law School and a Master's in Art Business from Sotheby's Institute of Art- London in 2019, she decided to launch __crate  with the goal of introducing new audiences, to diverse perspectives through art and creating opportunities for historically underrepresented  artists.  In the past, she has worked at Jack Shainman Gallery in NYC and the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC.  She is co-founder of Black@ Sotheby's, the Black student and alumni group at Sotheby's Institute of Art.  She's also a member of the New Art Dealers Alliance.  In addition to founding __crate , she specializes in the intersection of art business, intellectual property, and national economic development.

 All right now, let's [00:02:00] hear from Clark.  

 Awesome. So hello, Clark. Welcome to the Sistahs in law podcast. 

Clark Edmond: [00:02:23] Hi! I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, I'm just feeling excited.

Charity Gates: [00:02:29] I'm so excited to talk to you as well today.  To get acquainted with my guests, I start with this first question, which is what is your origin story and where are you and your people from?

Clark Edmond: [00:02:40] Okay. Yeah. I love this question and I've never been asked it before, so I'm excited to share, on my paternal side.

My, my Mama Dot , that's my grandmother. She's from Augusta, Alabama and my paternal grandfather Pop Pop he's from [00:03:00] Dudley, Georgia. And that's like right outside of Dublin, Georgia. So they're both descendants of sharecroppers and we're very proud of that. On my mom's side, she's like on her dad's side they're super, super Washington, DC, like born and raised, never left. And my grandmother, she is from Arkansas and her family from Arkansas and St. Louis, Missouri between those two places.

Charity Gates: [00:03:29] Wow. That's incredible.

Clark Edmond: [00:03:30] Yeah, I get the best of both worlds, I think.

Charity Gates: [00:03:34] It's like the classic Black American story.

Clark Edmond: [00:03:37] Exactly, like Deep South and then that Northeast vibe. So I'm very lucky.

Charity Gates: [00:03:45] So now that we know a little bit about your background, I'd love for you to talk about your experiences with law school. And, kind of thinking back to that time period, before going to law school, what made you decide [00:04:00] to attend law school? And then why did you choose the school you ultimately went to

Clark Edmond: [00:04:04] Yeah, so I attended University of Pennsylvania Law School in Philadelphia and my road there was quite interesting. I think it's classic, like my dad's a lawyer, so I was like, oh, it makes sense for me to do law. Poli Sci major in undergrad. Love policy.

And then I took a pre-law class and a criminal law class my senior year and did well in them. So it was really just for me, oh, I'm succeeding in this discipline and so I'll pursue that. Because I did well in the criminal law class and found it very interesting. I took a year between graduating and going to law school, to study for the LSAT, apply to schools.

And I actually worked at the Richmond City Jail and I worked as a classification specialist and like helping the residents get into the jail. So like [00:05:00] looking at the reports, looking at their background within the system and determining where they should live within the jail.

So that was really interesting.

Charity Gates: [00:05:11] That sounds intense 

Clark Edmond: [00:05:12] Coming in.

Charity Gates: [00:05:12] Job.

Clark Edmond: [00:05:13] It was intense and it was like, I was so green. That's the thing I came in and I was like, oh, I'm going to make a change. And the first day it was very clear that I was in the criminal justice system. And you know, that experience was so enlightening. But I realized that I didn't want to go into criminal law very quickly because I, I took the work home with me it was incredibly emotional.

And yeah, it just, I, I really admire people who can work within the criminal justice system, because it's difficult to compartmentalize and separate those, your feelings and your home life from what you were through, the people you work with and those stories you encounter every day. So I, like I said, I [00:06:00] quickly decided that I didn't want to go into criminal law, but meanwhile, I was applying to law school with that story about wanting to go and, you know, make change within the criminal justice system.

So by the time I got into school, my idea my reason for being there had changed. Oh. And I also want to go back to why I decided to go to Penn. And that's, I didn't really, I wasn't familiar with the school or the campus, but my stepdad, he, he encouraged me to apply. So I applied without having visited the campus,

and then I visited after applying and I was like, oh, this is the school. It's small, a smaller community, the campus is smaller it's like the law school's within one building. And just Philadelphia is beautiful. so I really took to it right away. So I got the call that I got in and I just took it.

I, you know, gotten an offer from another school with a scholarship and I loved Penn enough [00:07:00] to go there instead. And it was the right decision. Because that school is just so supportive and my journey through law school, which I'll share more about, you know, right after this was quite unconventional and the administration was just so there for me allowed me to have a lot of flexibility and always encouraged me to pursue my passion, even when I was most confused.

So going back, I entered my 1 L and I was like, whoa, why am I here? I felt like sort of a black sheep because, you know, everyone in law school, we know this, I think people put on a front. They're like, I know what I'm doing. Yeah. Like I really understand what's going on when that's not the case. So like every experience I came in and my classmates, they seem to be very clear about why they were there.

Honestly, like most of them were in my class and I felt like I didn't belong for that reason cause I was still searching. And finding like my motivation, I sort of [00:08:00] lost my motivation for being there. And so, I took a leave after my first semester and then took some time to intern do an internship at the Smithsonian. So I got, an internship at the Smithsonian in Washington, DC, and I got the opportunity to work in the archives of Alma Thomas. The, yeah, it was, I mean, it was so surprising. I was like, I was working in like the I.T. Department, but my boss, she was working closely with the Secretary Ameritas, and he was working on a book going into the archives, the Smithsonian archives, and connecting artifacts to Georgia. So it was perfect. I mean, Alma Thomas she's from Georgia, I believe Columbus. And, so I got the opportunity to work in our archives and it was like, whoa, I've been to art museums my whole life, but this.

Like my path, this passion for the arts, it was [00:09:00] seriously ignited in a way that I can't really describe in words, it was real. Like I was like touching her hair and reading through her notebooks and her sister's notebooks and reading first-hand accounts of her experiences, her inspiration behind the colors that are shown within her work because she's an abstract painter who works with a lot of colors. And the light that you see behind the her colorful work, she was actually inspired by the colors that she saw in her childhood in Georgia, and like the red clay and her mother was an artist.

And it was just like this beautiful story. Not only that she also lived in DC. So there are these like these connections.

Charity Gates: [00:09:43] I know a full circle moment, honestly.

Clark Edmond: [00:09:45] Oh my gosh. And I was sort of lost at that point and I was like, dang, this is it. Oh gosh, I can't ignore it. So, I came back to go back to law school and do my 1 L year again.

And needless to say the whole year, I was pretty [00:10:00] distracted by my love of art. And,

Charity Gates: [00:10:02] So just an explanatory comma, you had to take all the classes over for

Clark Edmond: [00:10:07] Yeah, my whole first semester I had to take over and at Penn they allow you to, if you take a leave or remove yourself before finals, then you can get a refund on your tuition. Yeah.

Charity Gates: [00:10:21] I never knew that was possible at a law school. And I'm sure the audience will be mind blown too, because that is

Clark Edmond: [00:10:27] Really?

Charity Gates: [00:10:27] Not a common occurrence from my experience. I've never heard that before, which is amazing!

Clark Edmond: [00:10:34] Yes, that is awesome. I'm not, they allow a lot of flexibility and that's, you know, going into the next part of my journey. During my 1 L year, I got a pop-up ad. Cause I was like during class, I'm just being honest about everything.

Charity Gates: [00:10:50] Yes, I appreciate that. And I'm sure the audience will too.

Clark Edmond: [00:10:54] I'm so glad because sometimes I'm like, am I sharing too much?

 So, I was [00:11:00] basically reading about art during my classes and I got a pop-up ad for Sotheby's Institute of Art. I was like, what is this? Okay, what is this? You can go to school for like grad school for art? If even if you don't have an art history background? Okay, let me do some more research.

So, I decided to apply. The application required for, you know, a commentary or like an art critique of an exhibition, I had never done that before. So the application I found challenging, but also it felt very, I don't know, natural,  I ended up getting in!  You know, I went to my school, I was like, Hey, can I take a leave to do a masters? And lo and behold, yes, I took a leave for a year to pursue a master's in London and art business at Sotheby's Institute of Art. So that one year, I mean, it was phenomenal experience. Some of my best friends, actually my business partner, I met her.

One of my business partners I met during the program and [00:12:00] I came back to law school. I went knowing that I was going to return. I came back with knowing that I wanted to work in the arts. So it was a completely different experience from then on. It was just so much better. And I did my master's in art business, so I knew I wanted to learn about entrepreneurship, intellectual property, art law, cultural heritage, even fashion law, like just really understand the breadth of, I know you can understand this because we have a lot of the same interests. Yeah, so I returned to law school with a lot more motivation and I, you know, found what I wanted to do and everything that's happened over the past three years are a result of Penn being flexible in allowing me to pursue my passion during the course of my legal education.

Yeah. So that's it.

Charity Gates: [00:12:50] Wow! That story is a rare gem honestly, cause I I've never heard a story about someone being that [00:13:00] supportive and secure in law school.  Like that. That's incredible. And I hope it inspires somebody to ask deeper questions to their law school administration.

Clark Edmond: [00:13:09] I hope that people who hear this or your listeners, yeah, I went through a hard time in law school and speaking with the administration, they were like, okay, how can we help you graduate? And that was the question that they asked. And I mean, it changed my life essentially. So yeah,  dig deeper for sure.

Charity Gates: [00:13:30] Especially for Black women, like we're usually the afterthought in any institution let alone a law school. So I really appreciate you sharing that story.

Clark Edmond: [00:13:40] Happy to!

Charity Gates: [00:13:41] So  looking back over your, your time in law school, like even if it was an expanded experience than traditional

Clark Edmond: [00:13:49] awesome. curves.

Charity Gates: [00:13:51] Right? If you had any advice for yourself back in law school, what advice would you give

Clark Edmond: [00:13:57] Lord! Okay. [00:14:00] I feel like there's a lot of advice, but okay. Let me go through the list.  I think the first, the first definitely the first advice seed of advice that I would give myself would be to be audacious and open about your goals, like career goals within law school more fervently than I did, because I, some people knew about what I was doing and in terms of the business that I started and wanting to be an entrepreneur, but I didn't really share it with everyone.

And I think I should have been prouder and more open about that. So if you have an idea, that's the thing in school, people are very supportive. I mean, with their contacts even. So, I would say, be audacious, say like, Hey, this is what I want to do, how can you help me do it? And you know, be proud of what you're doing.

Because with __crate , my business now I sort of was in the cut, like I was in the Wharton Venture Initiation Program, but I didn't [00:15:00] tell anyone. But it was important and I should have celebrated that.  That's going into the next, the next chunk of advice I have, which is, to  celebrate your wins, like every single day, small, large, even if you're like, wow, I just got through this day, this day of classes, it was so difficult.

Like go home and celebrate. I wish I had done that more because when I was in school, I think at times I was like, oh gosh, I'm so different. I want to do different things. But meanwhile, I had these opportunities and that were very expansive that I hid from people and didn't share. And then I think my other, I think take care of your mental health. Mental health is definitely a priority in law school. And when I was there, I got a lot of support from the mental health services at Penn, from, you know, my administration connecting me and facilitating connections to that office. And Just like allowing me some space, even just like coming in and [00:16:00] crying in an office, that's very important to just seek out help.

And then I would also say don't compare yourself to any other student, cause you have no clue what's going on in anyone else's mind. I have spoken to people that I thought had it completely together since law school. And they were like, oh my gosh, I was struggling the entire time .  And you'll have no clue because everyone I think tries to is trying to just keep it together every single day. So never, never compare yourself, especially if you have other interests outside of law school, because you will get distracted because money. And, you know, I mean, come on, like getting a corporate law job, you can sacrifice a lot.

I think I would have been sacrificing a lot had I gone into corporate law, but I would have been like financially. I mean, you're just like more secure. It's just a, it's just a reality. So, you know, tunnel vision, keep your blinders on and stay on your mat. That's [00:17:00] what one of my friends says like yoga, but just stay on your mat.

Don't look at anyone else.

Charity Gates: [00:17:06] Yeah,

Clark Edmond: [00:17:07] Yeah, that's it. I probably have more goodness, email me. If you have more questions.

Charity Gates: [00:17:12] I'm gonna, I'm sure the audience would appreciate connecting with you offline. So yeah. Thank you for sharing those incredible gyms like that that's important for everyone to know. And like coming out of this pandemic has like, really made people go introspective and think about what their life is going to be like, especially when you're, when you see the incredible amount of resilience around you and people trying to survive and surviving.

But it also kind of made people realize that life is too short to do things that you don't like. But going off of that, you, you took a pretty unconventional path after law school, even within law school, but we'll just [00:18:00] keep going from um, from there. Can you describe your journey post law school and what your current position is?

Clark Edmond: [00:18:09] Yes, of course. Now this is the part that's actually like chutes and ladders. It's like, I definitely went and unconventional route. So, you know, hang onto your seats really. So needless to say, I was confused when I was, when I graduated, I was trying to decide whether or not I wanted to pursue a job in corporate law, like in intellectual property specifically, and, you know, media and entertainment.

One of my major interests and focuses in law school, whether or not, I wanted to go into the commercial art world and whether or not I, I had an opportunity to work at my father's law firm. So there were different things too, like pros and cons to each situation, you know, benefits, some opportunities that I had to consider.

So after four years, really five years [00:19:00] of higher education, I was burned out like genuinely. And I decided to just take a break, not necessarily a break in terms of, you know, productivity and moving my program forward. But I was like, I need to explore some things to figure out where I want to position myself in the long-term.

So after I graduated, I did an internship, a summer internship at Jack Shainman Gallery in New York. And I lived in New York for a few months and during that time, I wanted to decide whether or not I had to give commercial art, the commercial art world a try. Cause I'd never done that before I understood public interest and like, you know, public art institutions and I understood the legal side more but I'd never worked in a blue chip gallery. and you know, my inspiration for that was I had a conversation with this woman who works at Sotheby's in New York in the corporate office. And she asked me sort of this obvious [00:20:00] question. I went to her, I was like, Hey, I'm going to work in the art world.

And she was like, what do you want to do in the art world? I was like, what, what does that stop stop asking don't ask that question. So I had to explore and interrogate that question. I just had to so worked at the gallery and by the end of the summer, I actually got an opportunity to work with a law tech firm remotely based in Washington, DC.

And so having some coin or some money coming in, it wasn't a lot, but I was like, dang, I'm gonna go back to London. My partner lives there. So many of my friends lived there. So I took the opportunity, this remote working opportunity to go there. And then this

Charity Gates: [00:20:46] And this was after Jack Shainman internship ended.

Clark Edmond: [00:20:49] Exactly after Jack Shainman. And then I went to London for a few months and then I went to Bali.

[00:21:00] Yeah.

Charity Gates: [00:21:01] Somebody, some film we need to like write down your life story and like license the film rights to somebody!

Clark Edmond: [00:21:10] And it's wild when you say that, cause I'm like, oh yeah, that's my life. But then I say it out loud and I'm like, that's bulk wild. What was I thinking?

Charity Gates: [00:21:19] I would watch this!

Clark Edmond: [00:21:21] I should write something down. A book is in

Charity Gates: [00:21:23] Issa Rae where are you?

Clark Edmond: [00:21:24] Right.

Charity Gates: [00:21:25] We have a story you.

Clark Edmond: [00:21:28] My favorite Awkward Black Girl since college, like just everything to me.

Um, so yeah, I went to Bali for a few months and I did the whole, like, you know, it was so interesting, like working in like these coworking, digital nomad spaces, You know, wearing a bathing suit every day, working hard hours, and then going to the beach and like riding a scooter around no cars. And it was a phenomenal experience.

I did it because I'll never get that opportunity again. I knew that I [00:22:00] was going straight into my career, and I wouldn't get a breath of air, cause I knew I had big things that I wanted to do and I wasn't going to stop. So, yeah I went to Bali! And then I got back to America thinking like, oh, I'm gonna apply to jobs and move to California or New York and like, see what happens.

Cause I decided at that point to pursue some sort of like corporate law within IP. And that's where I wasn't mentally, but I got back and then pandemic! And yeah, I got back March 12th and

Charity Gates: [00:22:36] Oh wow.

Clark Edmond: [00:22:36] like the shutdown happened March 15th. Like I'm saying. The goddesses, they guide me, they really in the right direction.

So I had this moment where I was like, okay, I was, you know, in my parents' home because I came to visit to get myself settled before moving. And I was like, I have this opportunity to not have overhead rent. [00:23:00] So I'm going to pursue ____crate  and I, I did it. And also, this is a note I have to say, I met my business partner Blaine Bilal the August before I went to London and Bali.

So we, during the time I was traveling, we were ideating  ____crate  and trying to get that started. So when I got back, we had a good idea and like a foundation for what we wanted to do. So I have all of the framework for my business and I decided to do it full time, which was a huge decision and risk. I have to say.

I mean, it was a, it, wasn't a hard decision to make. Yeah.

Charity Gates: [00:23:37] Hmm.

Clark Edmond: [00:23:38] And here we are today and I'm speaking with you. So, I must be doing something right, right?

Charity Gates: [00:23:42] Yeah. Yeah. This is an incredible story.  Like I was just thinking about this as you were talking, but sometimes we have such limiting beliefs in our minds that prevent us from imagining a possibility, like how you've imagined.  Speaking for myself, honestly, [00:24:00] like I never thought it was possible to do all the things you've done, within law school, post grad and just in life. Like going to Bali. Wow.

Like,

Clark Edmond: [00:24:09] I have to say, like overall I say this all the time and my family does too. Like I'm truly blessed and highly favored. I'm incredibly blessed. I have such supportive parents and you know, my support network is vast and deep. And I wouldn't have been able to pursue my business and my life without these opportunities. If I, a lot of decisions were easier for me because I have a support system and not just financially, but like emotionally, like I was working when I was abroad. But like my parents believed in me enough to say like, we're going to invest in you. I'm giving them that money back, but we're gonna invest in you to pursue this because we believe  in you, and not only that, like they believed in my idea, which is very [00:25:00] important. They wouldn't be doing this if they thought this was a bad idea. But yeah, it's, it's been an incredible journey. And your right, I, I think I went through so many years of feeding those limiting beliefs.

I thought to a point where I was like, I really, I mean, I looked at myself in the mirror. I was just so hard on myself, like daily. It was just so difficult. Exhausting, I would say. And even during this incredible journey that we're talking about, I was really, it was a hard time. I can't gloss over that. I reached a point where I was like, I have to be healthy and kind to myself in order to be successful and to do what I want to do and to have the impact that I want to have in this world in order to do good. And so limiting beliefs are so real and it takes a lot to work through them. It really does so much. Goodness.

Charity Gates: [00:25:52] Yeah. so you, you kind of touched on your business __crate . Can you kind of go into a little more detail and [00:26:00] describe what the business is to the audience?

Clark Edmond: [00:26:02] Yes, of course. __crate , we are an art collective  we're three individuals and a group of phenomenal advisers and we work with businesses and organizations to help them implement arts and culture strategy into their social impact, diversity, equity, accessibility inclusion initiatives. So our goal is to really change business best practices and how we go about our society and traditional industries go into and work with the creatives and the art world essentially. So using my background in policy and really enjoying conversations around, you know, public art, national economies and, corporate social responsibility, all of these aspects that move businesses along  and you know, art organizations along. Our goal is to really, you know, I heard this [00:27:00] amazing phrase from, actually a Spelman student, creative intervention, and that's really what we're doing.

And our focus is on, you know, amplifying spaces and representation for historically underrepresented groups. So that is what's up. We're a consulting firm.

Charity Gates: [00:27:19] Wow. Amazing.

Clark Edmond: [00:27:21] Yeah, and it's really great, you know, right now we're doing art talks with, you know, businesses and orgs around art and, you know, really using it as a filter and a lens to discuss greater social issues, social justice, advocacy, race, accessibility. So, it's really interesting because I hope you can tell that my mind like weaves all of these topics and industries and sectors together, and our goal is really to bridge these things and these different opportunities too, for companies, [00:28:00] organizations, and historically underrepresented groups within the arts to you make each other better. It's so important. I really think everything connects. It really does

Charity Gates: [00:28:10] You're a creative with an entrepreneurial mindset, which is the best combination.

Clark Edmond: [00:28:16] As are you! And that's why I'm like obsessed with you.

Charity Gates: [00:28:18] Thank you

Clark Edmond: [00:28:19] I

Charity Gates: [00:28:19] you.

Clark Edmond: [00:28:20] just live for that vibe. Like how can we do it in a creative way? You know, we're solving real problems, but through a different lens with different voices and diversity and thought. I know that word is sometimes overused and use incorrectly, but really like diversity in thought is so, so important to greater discourse.

So, I think you asked another question. I'm the founder and CEO of __crate  and what do I do? It's sort of like everything. I'm starting a business and building a business. And when you're an entrepreneur, it's literally just everyday everything. So it's really fun. It's challenging. Sometimes I'm like, I wish [00:29:00] someone could just tell me what to do.

Just give me a task and I'll do it. But every day it's creating work for myself in order to keep my business going. So, I'm really excited about it. I'm loving it. It's hard. It's seriously hard, but I'm just happy. Genuinely happy.

Charity Gates: [00:29:16] That's amazing. So how you talked about the collective doing art talks with businesses, is there a way for listeners to get connected to those or follow more information about __crate ?

Clark Edmond: [00:29:28] Yes, I mean, you can follow us @ underscore underscore __crate  on Instagram. And the best way to connect with us to work with us is to go to our website. It's www dot __crate  collective.art and you can add a link on this to connect  your listeners to our services. But yeah, connect with us there. We have an inquiry form, or if you can just email me email hello@cratecollective.art.

Um, We'd love to hear from you.

[00:30:00] Charity Gates: [00:29:59] Amazing.

Clark Edmond: [00:30:00] Great question. I really appreciate that.

Charity Gates: [00:30:03] Yeah, for sure. And then kind of like going off of your perspective since you've had so many experiences within the art world, what is kind of your perspective on how the art world exists currently and  from a legal perspective, but also like an art professional perspective.

Clark Edmond: [00:30:23] I love this question because it's through the lens of the legal perspective. I was thinking about this and I'm like, there's art as it applies to law, and then there's  law as it applies to art. And there's so much to talk about. I'm not going to cover everything. I'm just going to talk about my interests  and just things that I'm thinking about daily. I really, and you can tell based on our mission, my business' mission and our business model, I think that you can apply to the art world the legal perspective in so many ways like there's tax law, corporate law [00:31:00] contract law. There are so many things.

But I'm going to like, turn it on its head and talk about like art as it applies to policy. They do interweave, but like they can help and like uplift each other. So things that I think about like public art as it applies to national economic value. How can we justify increased funding for the arts, because it brings communities together.

There's data. It's so important, but there needs to be more data collected because you know, governments change. As we know the Trump administration, they reduced funding for the arts because it wasn't proven through, you know, a neoliberalist framework, which is just like, capitalist value data show me the money, show me the money and why we should invest into it.  But I think that there's more there. And when you apply law to art in this way, I really like to look at intellectual property and the history of copyright.

Charity Gates: [00:31:59] Hmm.

Clark Edmond: [00:31:59] And you [00:32:00] can find a lot of justifications in nations for how they value art today.

And it's fascinating to look at the history of just know where these rights came from. So that's so many topics together. I hope I'm not being too long winded. I get really into this stuff and like just all over the place.

Um,

Charity Gates: [00:32:20] Amazing. I'm just like, loving the IP geeking out, nerding out

Clark Edmond: [00:32:25] Oh, yeah. And that's a paper I'm developing. So like, please don't take my ideas. I'm like writing it and submitting it now. And it's just like, I've been working on it for like a couple of years and. Yeah, we have to prove these things for some people it's sucks that we have to do it, but it will make society better.

And then this is something I'm really into. And I explored these ideas when I was in law school. And that's cultural expression in all forms as a means of justice post-conflict. I think, you know, there's a scholar her [00:33:00] name is Rama Mani. And she works out of University of Oxford in the UK. And she has it's an initiative it's based in theater.

She's a poet, she's all of the things. She just living art. And she grapples with the same concepts, which is that, you know, after conflict post-conflict communities and societies, their culture is sometimes stripped away from them. There's like cultural genocide. So how do we re-establish these communities?

We invigorate them and, you know, rebuild.  Not even rebuild. It's just like, I don't know. What's the right word is there's I'm trying to search for a word, but I'll use rebuild those cultural connections because they're so important even when it comes to justice. There are courts. There's the traditional court system and tribunals and international law, but like where's the justice for cultures?

Like where is it? There are, you know, NGOs and public interest [00:34:00] organizations who are seriously doing the work and the UN they're doing the work too, but I think um. Yeah, that's another thing that I really think should be explored especially as it relates to women because women have a really important play a very important role in culture the within societies.

Like you even think about applying it to like Western world.  In the Western world, which is a term that I really don't like using all the time for some reason. I don't know why I need to explore that a bit more. Corporations that have more women in executive roles, they're more likely to support the arts!

Like, come on like that. That's. That's facts. So, women play an incredible role, a very important role in culture globally. so that's about it. those are the ideas that I'm interested in exploring more and really sharing with the world. did that answer your question?

Charity Gates: [00:34:56] Yeah, it did. Thank you for providing some [00:35:00] perspective on that. Cause everyone has a different I guess take on different industries. And it's nice to hear, as you said, diversity of thought another perspective, because we always hear linear things about, oh, galleries, auction houses, this, that, yeah. And the other, but there so many other parts of the art world that don't get as much attention, which also have huge effects on the way that we live in, in society.

Um,

Clark Edmond: [00:35:25] Love the way you articulated that. Exactly. And then even within the commercial art world, I like to challenge people to think about how policy affects the overall market, like the art market. I think that's very interesting. That would be an interesting question to probe because, you know, policy affects everything, like we're Sistahs in Law, you know,

Charity Gates: [00:35:48] exactly.

Clark Edmond: [00:35:49] That's way I see the world.

I'm like, okay, so it's happening, but how is it happening always ask that question. How and why?

Charity Gates: [00:35:57] Exactly! The two most important.  [00:36:00] Okay, so kind of moving back towards career over the course of your career so far, what has been the best advice you've received from any source?

Clark Edmond: [00:36:09] Yes! This question.  The best advice I ever received was from one of my classmates at Penn. His name's Joel Dankawa I don't even think he remembers saying this. I don't even remember the context. I just know I heard it. And I was like, oh yeah, that's it. He said, " Listen to the advice you get, listen to it, but you don't have to take it." So simple, but it really applied to my life.

I was blessed, I'm blessed with a lot of connections and opportunities to talk to people. And I think you know, a lot of Black women in law are especially amongst our like community. But everyone is different.  Everyone has a different journey. You can always take nuggets from people's stories, but if it doesn't feel like it applies to you, you do not have to follow it.

 I got distracted many [00:37:00] times, especially within my 2L and 3 L years by you know, following a path that didn't feel genuine and I wasn't following my intuition. So thank you, Joel. Well, that's my best advice.

 Charity Gates: [00:37:12] And then forward looking, where do you see the future of your career heading?  Like,  what imagination do you have for your future?

Clark Edmond: [00:37:21] My imagination goes everywhere.

Charity Gates: [00:37:23] Yes.

Clark Edmond: [00:37:24] I'm sure you can understand that, but I am a bit more focused now. So I really I'm focused on __crate  growing. that's what my focus, I wake up every day and I'm just like, what communities can we touch? What businesses can we work with to really get into these conversations to change the way that corporations, businesses and orgs utilize the arts? It's a tool that is often under utilized, but like, how can we just like take it to the max? So I'd like __crate  to grow in terms of like our reach, our [00:38:00] team, you know, our capability. I'm looking for more people to become a part of our collective. I'd like to be like, in terms of size, like the Ogilvy of the art world, not branding no, but just like, yeah, let's go international.

Let's do this. And then professionally, I'd like to do more things like this. I love engaging in discourse and being a part of the conversation. As I expressed before I have a lot of ideas and I'm at a point where I want to get them out there and engage in conversation with other, you know, art people and policy people.

And I'm always looking for opportunities to have conversations and yeah, just let it happen.

Charity Gates: [00:38:43] I love that you ended on that poignant note because that, yes, I agree.

I have no words. I just agree.

Clark Edmond: [00:38:52] We just, it's so important for diversity in thought. And over the past, like year I realized it I'm said thank you to [00:39:00] all of the creatives and, or just people, business people, whomever who have engaged and started and spark conversation virtually. Like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Because I realized like watching these talks. I'm like, I have something to say I have something I have something to say. And not all of us have opportunities to like travel to conferences and like go to these talks at museums and all these things like.  And so now it was brought to us. So we all have something to say. And even, you know, like we have law degrees, but I'd like to say the intellectual conversations, aren't just for intellectuals, that's BS. Like we really all do have something to bring to the table and add because yeah. There's too much to understand for one person to understand. Yeah. Thank you again to all the people who have put themselves out there cause like we're trying to do the same thing.

Charity Gates: [00:39:54] Yes, public discourse and breaking down barriers

Clark Edmond: [00:39:58] Woo.

Charity Gates: [00:39:58] Snaps for [00:40:00] that.

Clark Edmond: [00:40:01] I always snap for the kids. Where does this come from? You know?

Charity Gates: [00:40:10] So, the trademark question of this podcast and like why I started it is like uplifting the community of Black women lawyers. And I always end with this  who is your Sistah in Law? And this can be any legal queen you admire, a celebrity for instance, or a classmate or. your law school bestie.

So anyone that you admire  that's a Black woman lawyer.

Clark Edmond: [00:40:36] Love that term legal queen oh my gosh. It applies just, yeah, for sure. I'm going to give two, if that's all right. May I?

Charity Gates: [00:40:47] Yeah, for sure. The abundance is the key of this podcast.

Clark Edmond: [00:40:53] Word of the year? Abundance and audacity. Those are my two. So [00:41:00] alliteration.

Charity Gates: [00:41:04] Okay.

Clark Edmond: [00:41:04] So,  yes, my friend Mary Jones. She is, I, you know, I'm at her my first, first year and she is just a legal queen like you said it. She's a good friend and she's just supported me through thick and thin, not just as a professional, but really a close friend. Goods, bads, ups and downs, highs and lows. And I can't thank her enough. Like she was at my graduation party, like. Even though she graduated before me.  So I, I adore her and really value her friendship. and she is a, she works in Philadelphia as a legislative aid in Darrell Clarke's office, he's a council president.

 So she's been in public interest and she's, you know, a part of the movement you could say. And then another legal queen is someone I met within the past year. Her name is Magali [00:42:00] Duque and she is a student at Penn now. She's a rising 2L.  And when I say legal queen, I totally, I mean it, I mean, it, she is an advocate for the arts, for Black women, for women across the board.

She's incredibly active in the community within Penn and outside of it. And I was connected to her through one of my classmates, we were in a seminar together, Jeremiah. And that's her partner. And also like, he's the best. He really is the best, but bringing it back to queens and he connected us while I was in London for a spell  you know, visiting and working. And she got me and it was just so uplifting.

I needed it. It was just like that day where I needed it. It was a day where I needed it. And she's just so excited about what we're doing with __crate , with my career, you know, my career personally. And so she sort of encouraged me to get [00:43:00] engaged, you know, further engaged in the Penn Law community again. You know, she always like, she's supports __crate  on Instagram.

Like all of the things she's just so supportive and I'm like, where did this come from? So I have to shout her out because I'm really looking forward to seeing what else she's going to do in the world. You should have her on the podcast too.

Charity Gates: [00:43:21] Oh, thanks for the suggestion.

Clark Edmond: [00:43:23] I mean, no pressure, but.

Charity Gates: [00:43:25] So just so the audience. Oh, did you have another thing you wanted to say?

Clark Edmond: [00:43:30] Yeah, I did. Okay. Apologies for interrupting again. I have three, you! And I know that sounds corny, but like Charity, you are a Sistah in Law. I really do continue that.  Cause when we connected. That was another, conversation where I was like, she gets it. Yes. And I vibe with what you're doing, your interests in art, entertainment, just culture across the board.

Love that you're doing this podcast and creating a, you've built a platform for Black women [00:44:00] to say their piece and like come together as a community where we have these, you know, when you go to law school, it's a very. It's an experience that is unparalleled and that really only we can understand . So being able to connect on that plane is phenomenal, but honestly just, I love your energy.

I can't wait to just let this relationship go forward and see where it goes, because you're just, you're the truth. So thank you.

Charity Gates: [00:44:29] Thank you for that. That was, that was so powerful and affirming.  I really appreciate you saying that.

Clark Edmond: [00:44:35] Always.

Charity Gates: [00:44:37] So where can the audience continue to engage with you? Do you have social media that you'd like to shout out or anything?

Clark Edmond: [00:44:45] I do. I'll bring it back to __crate  again, just like, as a reminder. You can follow us on Instagram @ underscore underscore __crate , C R A T E. And you can check out our website it's [00:45:00] www dot, __crate  collective.art and my personal Instagram account it's @ Clark, no, E @ clark, C L A R K dot L dot Edmund, E D M O N D.

I always have to spell everything out because everyone thinks my first name ends in Clark and any, and my last name has a U or an S. Just have to make sure I spell it all the way out. I know it was a lot, but Hey, can you blame me?

Charity Gates: [00:45:27] Exactly  make it clear and plain. All right. That's it. Thank you so much for joining us today.

 Clark Edmond: [00:45:34] Thank you for having me. This is like I needed this conversation. I'm so excited about your podcast. I've shared it with a lot of my friends. Thank you for creating this for us. Love it.

Charity Gates: [00:45:46] Much appreciate it. And always here for the community.

Clark Edmond: [00:45:49] Yes, know that's right!

  Charity Gates: [00:45:53] I just want to say that I was serious about that film.  I've been craving content that centers, black [00:46:00] girls, women, and femmes being expansive in all areas of life.  If you have the capacity to make a film or TV show, here's a little nugget of inspiration for you.  Clark is an incredible human being and I'm honored that she was able to participate with the podcast.  Please support her work and continue to engage with her in her business. __crate .  If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, please leave us a review so that more people can hear these powerful discussions.  Let us know your thoughts on the episode via social media and follow to get updates on the next episode.

 And as always, please share the podcast with someone who may be interested or who may benefit from these discussions.  You can find us on social media on Instagram @ Sistahs in Law, on Twitter @ Sistahs in Law Pod and please like our Facebook page.  For a full transcript of this week's episode go to the website at wwwdotsistahsinlaw.org.

 Our next episode will be the last one of the season before we take a break.  [00:47:00] So stay tuned for our next Sistah in Law.  Until then peace and love.