Episode 5: You Don’t Look Like a Lawyer feat. Tsedale Melaku
You Don't Look Like a Lawyer featuring Tsedale Melaku
Charity : [00:00:00] [00:00:00]
Hey, y'all welcome to episode five of the Sistahs in Law podcast. I am your host Charity Gates. This is a podcast featuring intimate conversations with Black women in law. Every other week, we will listen to stories from Black women about their trials, triumphs and tribulations navigating careers in the legal field.
I'm sorry, it's been a minute since our last episode. I was celebrating my 27th birthday last week. But I'm excited to present to you this week an incredibly well- versed guest who has dedicated her academic career to studying Black women in corporate spaces. Tsedale [00:01:00] Melaku is a sociologists postdoctoral research fellow at the Graduate Center City University of New York and author of You Don't Look Like a Lawyer: Black Women and Systemic Gendered Racism, which reflects the emphasis of her scholarly interests on race, gender, class, intersectionality, workplace inequities, diversity and organizations. You Don't Look Like a Lawyer focuses on how race and gender play a crucial role in the experiences of women of color in traditionally white institutional spaces.
And specifically Black women. Dr. Melaku's work has been featured in the Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, Bloomberg Law, Diverse: Issues in Higher Education among many other outlets. Dr.Melaku is currently working on her second book, The Handbook on Workplace Diversity and Stratification. You can find more info at her website at [00:02:00] www.tsedalemelaku.com. Okay, let's get into this discussion with Dr. Melaku.
Okay. Perfect. Hi, Dr. Melaku! Thank you for joining me for the sisters in law podcast today.
Tsedale: [00:02:28] Thank you so much for the invitation Charity. I'm excited to be in conversation with you today.
Charity : [00:02:32] Yeah, I'm so excited for the audience to hear from you. I read your book back in December and I think it's so important for people in the legal field to read. So I'm excited for them to learn more about how you got inspired and, what the book is all about. I like to start off the podcast asking each of my guests, what is your origin story?
Where are you and your people from?
Tsedale: [00:02:57] Oh, that's a great question! Yeah. I am [00:03:00] from originally born in Ethiopia. My parents led to the United States in the early eighties from Ethiopia and we have been living in New York City. I grew up in the Bronx in Parkchester. I was educated there. And ended up staying in New York for college.
I went to NYU undergrad and then ended up pursuing a PhD here at the graduate center with the City University of New York after working in a law firm for a couple of years. Yeah.
Charity : [00:03:28] That's really incredible! Well, you kind of touched on it, but how did you get into academia? What was kind of your, your impetus for going that route?
Tsedale: [00:03:39] Well, you know, after undergrad, I wanted to go to law school. Right. I really wanted to be able to affect some sort of change and I thought law school would have been a great opportunity to do that. But before starting, a friend of mine convinced me to come and work at her firm, and after six months there working as a corporate paralegal, I decided [00:04:00] that this was not the route for me.
And of course, you know, thinking back about it, I guess, you know, I think it would have been great to just go directly into law school. Because I probably would have enjoyed being in law school, being in that environment. And it may have led to a different path, but I'm glad that I actually ended up working in a law firm to kind of see the life of corporate lawyers and, and what that trajectory would have looked like.
And I think what really pushed me was that, you know, working in this particular firm, typical white shoe firm one of the top in the country located in the Northeast, they they didn't have a lot of Black associates. Right. And they certainly did not have a lot of Black partners. And at the time there was only one that I knew of, and it wasn't even in the department that I was working in or the corporate group that I was in.
So, I just, I didn't like what that looked like. And I thought, you know, what else could I do that is going to be engaging, but also affect change. And at the time my partner had started a PhD program in educational psychology, and really encouraged me to think about [00:05:00] pursuing a doctorate.
And I absolutely loved my undergraduate experience taking, uh sociology and Africana studies. And so, I thought, hm, sociology would be wonderful to explore here. And so I applied and ended up getting into a program and decided to continue working in the law firm while pursuing my PhD. And so that's really how I ended up kind of thinking about academia and the kind of change that I was interested in making in effectuating.
Charity : [00:05:27] Hmm. Wow. That's, that's kind of a supportive background, too, to have the law firm behind you while pursuing that that trajectory. I was also a sociology minor in college, so I love sociology
Tsedale: [00:05:42] Right?! I think sociology is a wonderful discipline. There's so much that we can do in sociology and particularly looking at different communities, people, structure, society as a whole. We have a lot of opportunities to engage in the way that people live their lives every day and within the [00:06:00] society and the systems that they're a part of. So I, of course, I think sociology is a wonderful place to start. And oftentimes when we're looking at some of the larger social structural issues,
Charity : [00:06:08] And it really plays in well with the law because it's such a people focused industry and field. So, it's important to understand how people work.
Tsedale: [00:06:17] Absolutely. I mean, working in a law firm while doing this degree really pushed me to think about the environment that I was immersing myself in. Right. And I think that because I was reading a lot about, you know, critical race theory, um engaging on in terms of like society and structures and systems that are in place.
I couldn't help, but turn that gaze towards the environment that I was working in. And really that, you know, it was a push to do that. I didn't end up choosing initially to look at examining the experiences of individuals in law firms. I was more holistically trying to see how popular cultural representations impact the experiences of black women.
That was my initial dissertation, uh research [00:07:00] focus. And it was only after a really, really smart woman told me. You know, you like doing this work, but you're so passionate about what you're seeing everyday in law firms and you're doing it. And you're living that life in a lot of ways. Why not marry the two?
Why not turn your gaze towards looking at law firms and those experiences that you're sharing. And it was a moment and I thought, wow, yes. Why not? This is, I haven't seen anything in terms of the literature, that specifically looks at the experiences of Black women in law firms and Black women lawyers.
So this would have been a perfect opportunity to not only amplify the voices of of Black women in law firms and in law, but particularly. you know, sharing that more publicly and widely and trying to understand, like, why is it that they're experiencing the things that they are and the things that I've witnessed.
Right. So it was nice to put voice to that and be a part of that journey.
Charity : [00:07:51] Yeah. It's helpful that you had that experience within the law firm space to really add that extra layer. So going back to your graduate [00:08:00] school days, what was your experience like as a Black woman in academia and pursuing a PhD and that whole process
Tsedale: [00:08:10] You know, my program. I mean, I went to school in New York City. So very much similar to going to undergrad, being immersed in a diverse community is one thing. But going into the classroom and finding yourself, being one of very few is another in particularly in New York. Right. I didn't anticipate that happening the second time around.
So even in my program, I was one of two self -identifying Black students. And I, I believe our original cohort was 28. The numbers dwindled, you know, as the years went on, but, out of that robust number to only have two Black PhD students in that program within my cohort, it was a bit startling.
But what I will say is my experience with my chair who has since passed, Dr. Jerry Watts, was phenomenal. I had an incredible opportunity to, to be under the [00:09:00] tutelage of someone who centered race, right, who really tried to amplify the work of Black scholars, sociologists history professors, American Studies professors, you know, like he really wanted us to have a very well-rounded grasp in terms of our intellectual journey.
And, and that was his primary goal with me and the work that I was doing. So I felt that I was very much shepherded in that way where my work was being amplified and, and my intellectual curiosity was being nurtured by someone who saw the value in someone that looked like me. So that I think is is probably the most incredible experience I've had in graduate school.
In addition to other faculty, like my co-chair who ended up stepping up and co-chairing my dissertation shortly after my chair passed away. Right. It was about five months before I defended that my chair had passed away and she, and this is Dr. Erica Chito Childs stepped up and really, you know she's always supportive as a committee member, but really stepped up and, and showed me a different way of looking at things [00:10:00] too.
Right? My, my critical race gaze completely shifted after I had an opportunity to be working with her exclusively and, and how she centered women right in the work. And so she really gave me a number of Black women scholars and women scholars as a whole to look at and engage with in doing the kind of work that I wanted to do.
So I had a wonderful experience with these two faculty members in particular. And there were others that were really nice, but I think that being in a predominantly white institution and an academic institution at that as a student of color and as a Black student, more particularly, you know, oftentimes we are made visible and hyper-visible in ways that are not good.
And it's reflected in, you know, self-doubt. It's reflected in feeling that the work that you do is not valued or is diminished. It's reflected in the kind of intellectual scholarship that you're learning that doesn't necessarily include people that look like you. And we know for a fact that we have existed throughout history in these intellectual domains.
[00:11:00] So, you know, these are some of the things that I tackled. And these are some of the things that created barriers and struggles. But you know, I also had a wonderful opportunity to be a part of IROADAC, which is the Institute for Research on the African Diaspora in the Americas and the Caribbean.
And as a graduate fellow, you're immersed in a community of scholars who are doing research on the diaspora, who are centering the lives, the experiences, the works of Black scholars and people who are coming from the African diaspora. So having that experience really did bolster the way that I engaged intellectually with a broader community of folks, but particularly it brought a lot of Black and Brown people together as well, which we necessarily didn't have you know, outside of our own personal networks within the school. So I really enjoyed that. And and I think, you know, with more work and more effort, particularly in this moment, universities and institutions across the board should really focus and think about how they're going to be able to not only center.
The experiences of your students who are BIPOC Black, Indigenous People of Color, but also how you're [00:12:00] going to include that intellectual journey, particularly with respect to scholarship and literature and like community experiences that they're having. I think this is an important place for us to look right now.
And not just for this moment, but moving forward and thinking about it for the future.
Charity : [00:12:14] Amazing. I'm wondering what that means for this moment now, too, just because everything's so digital and how institutions are I guess understanding how to create community in a time like this. And honestly, moving forward, because I mean, digital is the way of the future, but how can they foster community online and specifically centering BIPOC students as well?
Tsedale: [00:12:40] You know, I think, I've had the wonderful experience of teaching students in this moment, right? I developed or designed a course that was, was already in play at the university I taught at that is the Evolution and Expressions of Racism. So I had agency to really decide which materials to use and how to structure the course.
And I was [00:13:00] teaching it remotely. Right. And it was a synchronous course. So I was meeting with my students via Zoom face-to-face. But we're meeting at a time where people are suffering incredibly, right. And students in particular, they're being burdened, not only by COVID and the, the health implications, but the financial, the social implications that come with that.
And then on top of that, you know, having to navigate and deal with persistent racism as BIPOC students, but as all students, right? This is something that racism impacts all of us. So when you're in the classroom and when you're teaching a course like this in this moment, you know, I really had the opportunity to go into detail about a lot of the historical relevance of structural racism and particularly its evolution and how, you know, from the biological to the cultural, and thinking about colorblind racism as well, how all of that is playing out today, right in the streets, in the boardrooms in universities and how it's impacting them directly. So I think that we have an opportunity right now [00:14:00] to make the classroom much bigger.
And to give more people access to that experience, which is necessary particularly as we're thinking about, you know, teaching and exploring systemic racism and in society and in organizations and what that looks like and how impactful it would be for people to have core knowledge, core, foundational knowledge around that.
So that it makes it easier for them to not only engage in conversations about race and racism wherever they are, but also it gives them perspective. Right. It shares the experiences of others in order to teach us about how we can move forward from this moment. And you need to have a base foundation.
And so, you know, remote learning, whether it's, folks who are picking up where they left off, if they haven't completed, or who've never taken a class in race and racism in particular. I think this is a great opportunity for folks to be able to get into the material and, and also universities to see the value in that kind of work, right. Tapping into folks that are already doing it within their institutions, but also bringing other folks [00:15:00] in to engage, particularly with the faculty about teaching it, but also how to structure the curriculum and better bolster and engage in this kind of critical race work.
Charity : [00:15:09] And speaking of expanding the classroom, let's get into your book, You Don't Look Like a Lawyer. What was the origin story slash the impetus for writing this book? How did you get onto this topic in particular?
Tsedale: [00:15:23] So, you know, as I mentioned, I worked in a law firm as a corporate paralegal. And it's about 12, 13 years in that space. And while working there, I was doing my PhD. So after turning my gaze, I ended up deciding to look at the experiences of Black women lawyers and trying to understand what is it exactly about race and gender that creates this very much nuanced way in which they're experiencing law firms. But how that impacts their trajectory from both recruitment, professional development to advancement.
So upon completing my dissertation and trying to figure out like, you know, this is important, but it's not just important for [00:16:00] academics, right? It's not just important in terms of having it be a part of a Pro Quest, digital dissertation access. But more so how is this more applicable to everyday folks who might be able to engage in thinking more critically about why it is that there are so few Black women in law firms and particularly in partnership positions?
So that's where the idea came about with a race scholar, actually, Joe Feagin taking interest in my dissertation reading it and deciding that this was work that he thought would have, you know, larger implications for a broader audience. And so I began the journey of turning my dissertation into a book and, you know, to be quite honest, I've barely touched a significant portion of the data that I'd received.
I interviews that, you know, garnered over a thousand pages of transcribed data. There's no way you can put everything in the book. But trying to think about how I could structure the book in a way that, you know, speaks to the issues that Black women are facing in law firms, but also, you know, ways [00:17:00] in which that can be utilized to look at how this is implicated in other industries and other professions is something that I thought of and what better way than to write a book and promote it for a more general audience to be able to access and hopefully glean information that would support them as they're trying to have conversations that center structural institutional racism and sexism in the organizations that they're a part of. So the impetus really came from wanting to see this work, not just in universities and with academics, but really how can I do something that's going to help effectuate some sort of change for a much larger audience and particularly Black women.
Charity : [00:17:37] And often looking the part is closely linked to being perceived as a lawyer, as well as being successful as one. Can you tell the audience how you came up with the title of the book, You Don't Look Like a Lawyer and why you decided that would be the most appropriate title?
Tsedale: [00:17:55] Definitely. So, you know, in the interviews that I've done with [00:18:00] Black women and other women of color as well. The book only includes the perspectives of Black women, but it's oftentimes similar in varying ways. One of the things that constantly came up was this idea that they didn't look like a lawyer, right?
They were constantly being mistaken for other professionals, right, whether it be a paralegal, a secretary or another staff member, but never the lawyer. So there's something around that. And since I have heard this quite often that I don't look like a professor or, you know, while working as a paralegal, no one ever mistook me for a lawyer, which I always thought was interesting.
I was always the paralegal, the secretary, or some other type of professional in that space. I thought that, that term, that phrase in and of itself was so powerful in terms of thinking about how race and gender both impact the trajectory and experiences of Black women. And then of course, this is relevant for other BIPOC women as well, but specifically Black women. There's something about being Black in white spaces that oftentimes relegates us [00:19:00] t o nonprofessional positions when thinking about lawyers or doctors or professors, or, you know those types of titles that are held, right? So the high occupation statuses, are oftentimes not relegated to BIPOC and particularly Black professionals.
So I thought that that term and that phrase is something that is constantly being used and oftentimes heard by BIPOC and Black women specifically that I couldn't, I just, I couldn't push it out of my mind. And so, you know, I had other titles in mind, like dealing with daily injuries, right?
So looking at aggressions as something that is happening constantly and injuries, being something that is, you know, what I think is a more apt word for aggression versus microaggression because of the need to to recover from it. And so recognize the injury and recognize the time that it takes to not only get better or recover from that injury, but seeing that something actually happened, so it's not something we can brush away. But after deep thought it was like, well, you know, a lot of folks will think that it's, it's a book about actual injuries. Right. And [00:20:00] not maybe think about the metaphor of what that injury is.
So the other term and phrase that kept gnawing at me was you don't look like a lawyer. And at the time that I was writing it, someone actually said to me, you know, you don't look like a professor. So I was like, man, this is so pervasive and prevalent that I can't, I think most people who see the title will recognize like, Oh, wow, I've heard that before.
Whether it's a woman, you know, whether it's a BIPOC it'll, it'll be anything that strays from what we've been indoctrinated, right, to think a lawyer should look like oftentimes white and male, unlike most other high prestige positions.
Charity : [00:20:35] Right. And so you did a series of interviews with Black female lawyers in elite law firms to understand the underlying obstacles that get in the way of the ability to train, mentor, retain, and promote young professionals of color. How would you describe the double burden that Black women lawyers in particular face in elite white law firms that you describe in the book?
[00:21:00] Tsedale: [00:20:59] You know, I think that intersectionality is really key here, right? Thinking about how our identities and particularly race and gender are constantly overlapping intersecting and combining to create particular experiences that oftentimes have negative outcomes for Black women in white spaces.
So, thinking about that and considering that Black women have these two identities that are not privileging them in any way. And particularly in the book, what I do is I talk about the experiences of Black women, but I also highlight the differences with white women and Black men in order to isolate both race and gender and to see what it is about the combination, overlap and interconnectedness of race and gender that impacts their trajectories in ways that are negative.
You know, I thought about, what is it about perceived differences and similarities, in relation to these experiences, which speak to race privilege or to a gender privilege. And, if you think about white men, they don't have to navigate appearance narratives. Right.
They're always perceived as [00:22:00] professional. So just that whole idea of you don't look like a lawyer in particularly, you know, I'm going to hold men of color to the exception here, because obviously they too are met with the, you don't look like narrative, but that is something that creates that double burden.
Right? You have narratives around affirmative action diversity hires that center, Black people in particular, arguing that they are not qualified, that they are only in here because of a quota that needs to be filled. So that is something that they're constantly having to negotiate. You have this perception in terms of competence, right?
Oftentimes questioning the competence of BIPOC and Black women in particular. So making mistakes, doing errors is something that is like amplified to a particular degree that often times always negatively impacts Black women in these spaces and other BIPOC. This idea that, you know, we already have to come in with everything we need to be excellent all the time.
So like this idea of Black excellence in particular is something that was so pervasive in the [00:23:00] interviews. The majority of my participants were double iveys. So the idea that they were not qualified or competent, coming into these spaces is just absurd. Right? They were oftentimes at the top of their ranking in the schools that they're coming out of.
And so that narrative followed them throughout their experience. And that being coupled with affirmative action, diversity hire narratives, Is used to diminish their value, diminish the work that they can do and oftentimes thwart them from gaining access to opportunity in the organization.
So being called on to do substantive work, because partners and, and individuals within the firm, which, collectively, don't believe that they're actually qualified to do that. And so they lean on those who they perceive as more competent. And oftentimes folks that look like them.
So that's something else. And that's the benefit of sameness. And there are studies that have actually shown, right, including my own, that partners are more likely to gravitate towards candidates that remind them of themselves or that they feel that they'll have [00:24:00] more similar interests or experiences with. And, you know, this advantages, white women while white women and men actually while disadvantages Black women in particular.
Right. Not to say that Black men aren't disadvantaged, but particularly Black women. And that's, the core about that double burden, that nuanced way in which race and gender act in a particular way to disadvantage them. And then you also have, if we think about the boys club, right, you have that space in which Black women and, women as a whole, but Black women in particular are held back from participating or engaging. And this boys' club, isn't like a physical club, although it can be right. It's a social network of individuals that have access and resources and oftentimes Black women mostly are not part of those networks and excluded from that network.
So, this culture of exclusion that exists particularly to keep Black women away from accessing resources is something that comes up quite often in the book. Again, not to say that it doesn't happen to other BIPOC or Black men. But there are things that we can look at in terms of the perceived [00:25:00] differences with Black men, which then isolate gender. And, and it shows you what that gender privilege does with respect to their experiences. So that's why I center Black women, because we're constantly finding the erasure of the experiences of Black women. When we're looking at women as a whole, or, you know, just isolating race and thinking about race.
And that's where intersectionality is critical. Right. So that we don't have the continued marginalization of Black women because of their silencing and erasure from these narratives that exist.
Charity : [00:25:29] Very true. The thing that I appreciated about the book is that it gives so much language for phenomena that we know inherently, but that we don't feel, we have the words for. And one of these words that I just was like, wow, that's perfect the invisible labor clause. Can you describe the idea of the invisible labor clause and what that means?
Tsedale: [00:25:53] Yes. So, you know, in doing the research and engaging in the interviews, there were many, many [00:26:00] examples that Black women were using to explain work that they were doing, that wasn't actually being recognized and they weren't being compensated for. And I just look at that as invisible labor.
So the concept really derives from thinking about the ways in which, you know, there seems to be this unwritten article or clause in their employment contract that requires them requires marginalized groups. So it's, you know, this theory can be applied to varying other marginalized groups, but in the context of law firms and in my research with Black women, it really requires them to perform added unrecognized, uncompensated labor in order to navigate the social and professional settings that they're in.
So that's where that term really derives from. And it's recognizing that this work is constantly being done without recognition or compensation. And what comes from there and I think is really the bigger point in terms of the invisible labor clause is how it actually manifests. Right. How does that actually manifest in [00:27:00] organizations?
And, you know, I've further theorized this concept of the inclusion tax. What the inclusion tax is, is really it's the additional resources spent. And when I say spent, I mean, that are utilized essentially. And that includes time, money, emotional and cognitive energy that is really utilized and expended in order to adhere to and or resist white norms, but also to be included in white spaces.
Right. And that's something that is happening consistently, with respect to Black women in white spaces, right. They're having to pay this inclusion tax and it's levied in these various ways and all of this is invisible labor. Right. And to give you an example, when we think about appearance, that whole idea of you don't look like a lawyer, the emotional and cognitive energy that is required of us when we are met with that phrase, right, is important to think about right? Every single time you're being met with this idea that you don't look like a professional knowing full well that this [00:28:00] is your profession, that you have invested time, energy and so many other resources in order to do this and yet being included in the space requires you to consistently affirm to other people your positioning, right.
And what that does in terms of the tension that it builds and creates not just within you, but within the space that you're in. You know, it really calls attention to white spaces and individuals and the culture of organizations to recognize the work that is constantly being done by Black women just to be in that space and then to negotiate experiences with other people, as it relates to their personhood, their hair, for example, right? The clothing that they're wearing, the idea that they're not competent. So whenever your competence is being questioned, whenever your errors are amplified in ways that wouldn't be for your white counterparts, the emotional and cognitive labor that goes into that.
And I mean, I further theorized the inclusion tax to include, relational financial right, emotional and cognitive [00:29:00] labor. And I think it's important to think about that relational labor, because it's one that is impacted at every turn. What if we decide that we are going to engage in a conversation about the aggressions that we're experiencing? The labor, the emotional and cognitive labor that is expended to have that conversation, particularly in this moment is important to consider.
Also think that it's not, you know it's neither compensated in this moment or recognized in ways that are meaningful for us. Right. And I think that inclusion tax is really amplified in these ways.
Charity : [00:29:32] Yeah, that's an important idea. And just a little funny anecdote from my childhood. I remember watching the TV show Girlfriends. And now that it's on Netflix and we can stream it and relive all the episodes, I always remembered Toni as being the lawyer in this show because she, I guess looked like my idea of what a Black woman lawyer was supposed to look like with the straight hair and always [00:30:00] wearing the specific like designer clothes.
Then I realized that it was Joan that was the lawyer in the group. But Joan had big natural hair and I didn't really expect that that was the look that a lawyer would have. But now that I'm older and the culture honestly has also shifted. So there's many more lawyers wearing natural hair. And it's just interesting that you put that idea in the book to like actually highlight what that phenomenon is. But continuing on, based off of your research with the lawyers that you interviewed for your book, can you talk about what barriers Black women face and advancing to partnership positions and what stories were coming up for the women that you interviewed?
Tsedale: [00:30:48] A number of barriers that we can think of that really do impact the trajectory of Black women lawyers. And you know, as we've discussed, this whole idea of white normative beauty standards and [00:31:00] "fitting into that." And when I say "fitting in," I say that in quotes, because just the whole concept of fitting in is exclusionary.
Oftentimes used to exclude, Black women and BIPOC in particular. So you can think of just from the recruitment process how language dictates the way that this process unfolds for us. Now on top of that, once you're in it, there's one thing in terms of coming into the firm and getting recruited, but the process of actually learning right.
Professional development, developing your craft as a lawyer is what's critical to your ability to do well in these spaces. But if you are not given an opportunity to learn because your mistakes are amplified and you're perceived as, you know, a diversity hire or you're not competent enough because of those narratives white narratives affirmative action, really that follow you. This is a barrier that Black women have to try to break down, right? And these are concrete barriers, things that have been in place for a very long time and are very difficult to, to push past. That's one of the things that I think are important when we're thinking about the [00:32:00] experiences of Black women.
Also training comes with substantive learning and substantive deal action. And if people do not identify you as someone worthy of getting the royal jelly as Wilkins and Gulati discussing their seminal piece, why there are so few Black corporate lawyers, this I think is an important area for us to focus on. What is it about Black women that they don't get access to the royal jelly, the necessary training, the necessary relational access to people like senior associates or partners who can champion them? Right. The mentoring, the soft skills over some of the more overt forms of skills that are necessary. So, having informal access to individuals who are in high positions, who can teach you and train you in a way that is going to support your development, your professional development in that space.
Also someone who's going to champion you, right? So mentors are wonderful, but more than mentors, you need a sponsor. You need someone who is willing to put down their book of business to say, if we do not [00:33:00] look at Charity and provide her with access to the learning, the development, the networks in order to build and develop her craft then I am going to take that as an affront and I'm going to find I'm going to find myself somewhere else, right? Like someone who's willing to stand up to advocate for you, which really does draw clear lines towards allyship or more what I would like to term accomplished co-conspirator or collaborator, which is some of the terms that we use in my coauthors and I, Dr. Beeman, Dr. Smith and Dr. Johnson, in a recent article that we published that just really focuses on what does that public advocacy look like? What does that sponsorship look like? And so Black women are lacking in developing those types of relationships. And oftentimes partners, white partners in particular, will bring up, again language, mutual benefit this has to be mutually beneficial for us, right?
So that is exclusionary or organic. Terms that are used to, again, isolate and exclude Black women from gaining access to these resources which are being hoarded. And these are terms that I have to give credit to [00:34:00] Dr. Wendy Leo Moore, who wrote a phenomenal book that looks at the experiences of law students of color and faculty of color law schools. And so she coined the term and, and really develops the concept of white institutional space. And then with that, the idea of institutions hoarding resources in a way that doesn't give access to BIPOC. So I think these are some of the barriers that are some, but the critical barriers that lead to high attrition rates.
Not feeling as though the work that you're doing is valued, not seeing diversity at the table. So the argument that we should just lean in. And I've said this time and time again, it's really difficult to lean into a table when you're not actually in the room. So, you know, we have to first start with getting people in the door, pushing away from these pipeline narratives that are used to really dispel the ways or not dispel, but are used to bolster arguments that Black people are just not qualified or not interested in being in these spaces, which is absolutely not true. These are just some of the ways that we need to critically try to look at the hidden mechanisms that are operating in organizations [00:35:00] that lead to Black people and Black women in particular leaving so quickly, right, within their career trajectories and, and why that attrition rate is so high and it's data that's supported by NALP. It's data that's supported by other studies that have been done that really speak directly to what is it about Black women, about the experiences of women of color that lead to them leaving firms, but also why aren't they coming in, in droves?
What is it about that? Because we know that women are graduating at significant rates and Black women in particular too. So what is it? There's no real excuse to not have access to Black women for these recruitment efforts. But also once you're in you need to focus on what are you doing to build, to develop and to foster a trajectory that actually leads to advancement for them.
Charity : [00:35:46] And what is kind of your hope for the industry? Kind of taking an optimistic look at where the industry can be, and then what you see as positive points like with Black women lawyers. How they're [00:36:00] navigating these systems.
Tsedale: [00:36:02] I think that because of the moment that we're in, a lot of organizations are focusing on diversity. And, and, and really trying to understand what would a good forward plan look like? And this seems to be what folks are talking about right now. Obviously this is not a new problem.
This is something that has been in existence for quite some time. Diversity and diversity efforts are 40 plus years in the making here. And so I don't think that this moment should just be about this moment. It should be about recognizing the history that already exists. And then trying to figure out, what is it about our system that is not allowing us to really address these core issues that keep rearing its ugly head. It's focusing on, racism, right? Focusing on systemic racism that's embedded within the institution. And what is it? What are organizations willing to do law firms in particular about addressing that specifically because it's a law firm. Right. It's a bunch of lawyers who have taken an oath [00:37:00] about doing this kind of egalitarian work. And it's, we're missing the mark when we're not turning the gaze on ourselves to see what we're doing that is leading to these horrific outcomes for Black women, just as a baseline.
And some of the things that we can do is engage the literature. There's a lot of studies that have been done that tell you specifically what those issues are. Maybe it's important for us to move away from diversity and inclusion and focus primarily on racial equity. Racial and gender equity, making that the core mission.
Instead of... you know, and I, and I I'm writing about this right now, and I talk about this a lot. Organizations really need to make racial and gender equity intrinsic to the organization rather than it being additive. Right. So in this moment, we're forced to talk about this, but is it just in this moment? How are you driving change in the organization that's going to be long lasting so that we don't have to have conversations about race and racism all the time. But until then it has to be at the forefront of all of our engagements, wherever they are. We need to be able to keep the [00:38:00] pressure there. and recognizing that it's important to not only center this, but to make it a point to recognize the burden, right?
The added invisible uncompensated burden that BIPOC, and particularly Black employees, Black lawyers at this moment are having to engage in. Because they're magnified and amplified in this moment. So that's important. And I think, you know, some of the positives that are coming out of this is just the open dialogue that we're seeing.
And I'm hoping that this open dialogue will actually lead to some actual change. It's good to talk, but we need to see where this talk is going. How are we turning talk into action? And it comes from seeing what the problems are and listening, just listening is very key. And then being open to recognizing that, yeah, you know, we make mistakes, so we have a problem with not being able to obtain and then retain our Black talent.
And what is it about the things that we're doing here that are leading [00:39:00] to the outcomes that we're seeing consistently? And taking it from there and not being afraid to do that. You know, I think organizations need to, they need to stop thinking about, you know, I can't do this because of this versus this is the problem we know it's the problem.
What are we doing to address it besides just talking about it?
Charity : [00:39:18] Listening is key, as you said. And I feel like I could ask you so many more questions and keep listening to your responses. This is like the, the book come to life. But I'd like to end the podcast with the trademark question who is your Sistah in Law? And this can be a colleague, a famous legal queen that you admire, any other Black woman attorney that you'd like to shout out.
Tsedale: [00:39:43] I have so many amazing Black women attorneys that I want to shout out. But I keep all of their anonymity. I keep them confidential for various reasons. I know that they're constantly amplified and in negative ways. But also you know, in this moment [00:40:00] they, they're doing so much work on all fronts and barriers.
Right. And I think. For me presently, I have so many personal Black female lawyer friends. I absolutely love them. And I cherish the work that they do. And they're doing it day in and day out. From best friends to childhood friends, to relatives. And so I know that they exist. That's the other thing they exist.
But if I were to give you two, actually, if I were to give you one woman who is presently my my shero right. And has been for quite some time, I will say, you know, Stacey Abrams,
Charity : [00:40:33] Yes. The champion.
Tsedale: [00:40:34] The champion right! She has really exemplified, everything that we want to see in a human being, by just being herself. A brilliant, thoughtful loving, caring for people she doesn't even know. Right? Like taking that and using her power, her gift to amplify the voices of those who are [00:41:00] marginalized, who are made voiceless, who are silenced and erased constantly. Right. That's what she did in one act. She did that just by believing, recognizing that, you know, beyond anything, she is a brilliant, amazingly thoughtful, caring human being who is willing to do the work, not just talk about the work, but do the work. And putting herself on the line to do the work.
Right falling because she's being pushed down, but getting up and doing it and doing it until look, look what I can't. is
Charity : [00:41:33] Nobel Peace Prize come on.
Tsedale: [00:41:35] Everything. She deserves all the awards, all the praise and for being an inspiration to all of us. Regardless of race or gender or class or creed or whatever. You know, like she has just been a beacon of light.
And I think that if there's one person I could meet, it would be her. If there was one person I could have coffee with, it would be her, you know? And just to say, thank you just to say thank you for [00:42:00] creating a legacy that we can all claim and own. And then, and then recognizing like the power of Black women just by doing. And this is coming from the ancestors.
This is coming from, you know, my family, my mom, my grandma, my grandmothers, my aunts, my uncles, like just my whole entire family. And thinking about the, the matriarchs, the women, all Black doing this kind of work invisibly. Right. And having someone who can stand there and do the work in such a public way and get that job done, all the praise, all, all.
I feel so proud, right. And I think that feeling of being proud comes with knowing that there's so many people that probably thought she didn't look like a lawyer, right. Underestimated her at every turn and look what happened. So that's that's my, that would be my shero. That would be the person I would, I would raise up right now.
Charity : [00:42:50] She deserves all the flowers.
Tsedale: [00:42:53] She does!
Charity : [00:42:53] I hope one day she can come on the podcast and join us. Manifesting.
Tsedale: [00:42:59] Yes, [00:43:00] please! That would be wonderful. Wonderful. And thank you for doing this and for amplifying, not just this work, but the voices of Black women and Black women lawyers who are doing the work. Who no one will ever know who they are, but they're still doing it. And that's very important.
Charity : [00:43:15] Thank you. Thank you. So I can talk to you even longer, but I know we have to wrap up. So where can the audience check out your work and keep up with you?
Tsedale: [00:43:26] Anyone can easily access my website. It's just, my first name tsedale melaku.com. And yeah, you'll see coming events, research that I'm presently conducting, some popular writing that is of interest, but anyone can reach me through there as well.
Charity : [00:43:41] Awesome. Thank you, Dr. Melaku I appreciate you coming.
Tsedale: [00:43:46] Yes. Thank you so much, Charity. This is going to be such a wonderful endeavor and I'm wishing you all the best.
Charity : [00:43:51] Thank you so much.
Wow. Dr. Melaku is so knowledgeable. I highly encourage you all to read her book. If anything, at [00:44:00] least check out her articles! You can find more about Dr. Melaku and her articles on her website at WWW T S E D A L E M E L A K U.com.
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As always share the podcast with someone you think may be interested or who may benefit from these discussions. You can find us on social media on Instagram @sistahsinlaw, on Twitter @sistahsinlawpod, and like our Facebook page. For a full transcript of today's episode, go to WW dot sistas in that org. That's spelled S I S T a H S I N L a w.org. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. I will be going on a brief [00:45:00] hiatus, but until then, please stay tuned. Peace and love.
