Episode 4: Sistahs in Criminal Law

Sistahs in Criminal Law

Charity: [00:00:00] Hey, y'all. Thank you for joining me for episode four of the Sistahs in Law podcast.  I'm your host Charity Gates.  This is a podcast featuring intimate conversations with Black women in law. Every other week, we will listen to stories from Black women about their trials, triumphs and tribulations, navigating careers in the legal field.

 Today I have a special guest who knows a thing or two about trials and tribulations and having the perseverance to triumph in the midst of adversity.  Jana Dixon is a native of Conyers, GA my hometown. She graduated from Heritage High School in 2010 with an [00:01:00] academic scholarship to Erskine College in Due West, South Carolina. She graduated Magna cum laude with a Bachelor's of Arts in political science and a minor in business in May of 2014.  Her desire to become an attorney led her to Florida Coastal School of Law in Jacksonville, Florida.  She graduated in May of 2018 and became a licensed attorney in June of 2019.  Jana previously worked as an assistant public defender in Dalton, Georgia.

 Currently she serves as a lead attorney at the law offices of Lister, Holt & Dennis. Her passion for criminal defense stems from her belief to be a true servant and fight for those most in need.

 Just a little disclaimer before we start today's episode. None of the statements made during the course of this interview slash episode constitutes legal advice. All of Jana's statements are made in her personal capacity and do not [00:02:00] reflect the views of her employer. All right let's get started

Jana: [00:02:04] Ever since I was a little girl, I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer. I mean, that's a fact.  It was this powerful story that my mom told me that really sparked my interest in pursuing a legal career. She told me of this 15-year old girl who grew up in Louisville, Georgia, which is about 50 miles outside of Augusta for those who don't know where it's relatively located. She was the baby of 10 children who ended up getting pregnant.  A Black pregnant teenager in this rural Southern town. She was treated like an outcast, once people knew she was pregnant. She was forced to sit out of school for six months, even after she had the little girl.

 However, that did not stop her. She went to a neighboring county during those six months, so she would not fall behind. Once she returned back to her schools, she was punished for having a child out of wedlock. You see, there was this backwood unwritten rule that stated any student that had a child out of wedlock, had to sit out of [00:03:00] school for six months and could not participate in any extracurricular activities.

 This 15-year old mother desperately wanted to play basketball. And so, did her white basketball coach. So, he went to Augusta, Georgia and spoke to a civil rights attorney.  The attorney agreed to meet with the 15-year old teenager and her mother. He was gonna take the case pro bono. Once the Jefferson County Board of Education heard this little Black girl got a lawyer and was going to challenge them, they quickly backed down.

She ended up not only playing high school basketball, but she went on to play at Paine College in Augusta, Georgia, where she was inducted into the hall of fame. You see this 15-year-old black girl was my mom. And from that moment, I saw her as a heroine, a fighter for justice, a crusader for change. And I too thought to myself, Hmm.

Maybe I could do something, half as monumental with my life. So, I decided to become a lawyer.

 Charity: [00:03:52] Awesome. Hi Jana. Thank you so much for joining us today. Your story is so beautiful. That email that you [00:04:00] sent me telling me about your background was just unbelievable. So, I wanted the audience to hear. So welcome to the podcast!

 Jana: [00:04:08] Well, thank you charity for inviting me. This is so exciting!

Charity: [00:04:12] Yeah. I'm excited to get into it.  So, I like to ask each of my guests, as a first question, what's your origin story? Where are you from? Where are your people from? 

Jana: [00:04:23] Well, from what I can tell, I am, again, my mom is from Louisville, Georgia.

My dad is from Mississippi, but primarily raised in Gary Indiana. So, I like to tell people that I was country born, but city raised.

Charity: [00:04:37] Oh, I love that! That's beautiful. That's perfect.

Jana: [00:04:43] I guess I get the best of both worlds, right?

Charity: [00:04:45] Exactly. I like to say that too. Yeah. So, going off of that you decided to stay local around the South. Where did you go to undergrad?

Jana: [00:04:57] I went to undergrad in Erskine College, it's in Due [00:05:00] West, South Carolina. And yes, that's, that's correct it's Due West. I did not know anything about the school whatsoever.

It was never put on my radar. I was originally going to go to University of Georgia. That was my Go Bulldogs! That was my that was my heart. That's where I wanted to go. But I was blessed with the opportunity to continue playing basketball and got an academic scholarship to go to Erskine and, toured the campus and just fell in love with it.

Charity: [00:05:28] Wow! And so, you followed in your mother's footsteps with the basketball?

 Jana: [00:05:32] I actually followed in my mother's and my father's footsteps. Both of my parents actually played basketball and they both played at the same college. So, they're college sweethearts. Yeah. So, they have that true, like Love and Basketball story.

Charity: [00:05:46] Of course, like real life.

That's awesome. So, what did you decide to study while you were at Erskine?

Jana: [00:05:54] So I did major in political science and I minored in business. And let me tell you, I just [00:06:00] want to just be the first to say that I did not have a true interest in political science. I thought that I had to do political science in order to go to law school.

There's no one in my family that even attempted to go to law school. So, no one could really help me as far as the path that I needed to go. And I just, for some reason, I had this like preconceived notion that I had to major in political science. And I took a lot of AP classes that were kind of geared toward the major in high school.

So, once I got to college, I was pretty much already done with like my first semester of the major prerequisite. So, I just kinda kept with it. But that was not, you know, that was that a passion. I just love people were like, Oh my God, you did political science. And I'm just like, listen, if I could go back

Charity: [00:06:50] Right, there's no roadmap for law school.

Jana: [00:06:53] Exactly.

Charity: [00:06:54] Even though people try to make one.

Jana: [00:06:55] Exactly. There is no rhyme or reason. There is no roadmap. You could be [00:07:00] an art major. You could be an engineer. I mean, any facet, can get you into law school. So that was my first mistake, but you know what? I really wouldn't say it was a mistake. It was just not really knowing, you know, not knowing at all. But, hey, I enjoyed my professors. But it was a major that was hard.

Charity: [00:07:17] You got that knowledge, huh?

 Yeah. That's really amazing.  Not to stick with undergrad so much, but I'm so interested to know my mom's family is from South Carolina too, and I always see it as this very historical state where it's a lot of Black people have lived there and gone through there.

Like it was a major point of the slave trade. And they have such a robust history of African Americans’ origins there. So, what was it like going to college there and like learning and.

Jana: [00:07:51] Well, I'll be honest with you Charity. It was the complete opposite of what you are envisioning. I went to a PWI, and so my college [00:08:00] experience was totally different from my parents' college experience because they went to a historical Black college & university. And so, I wasn't afforded that opportunity. There was no Greek life

Charity: [00:08:11] And our moms are sorority sisters so let's throw that out there to the audience.

Jana: [00:08:19] Exactly, exactly. So, you can just imagine there was no DST, there was nothing. And so, it was a culture shock. To be honest with you. But I truly believe that it was where I needed to be because Erskine is also a Presbyterian  they're AARP.

And so it was both, you know, a liberal arts, but also a Christian school as well. And so, I think that God sent me there for a reason. Erskine provided So many opportunities for me that I don't think I would have necessarily been able to to gain had I went to an HBCU. So I, I'm definitely not sleeping on Erskine whatsoever.

It, it provided me what I needed to get to [00:09:00] where I am right now. So I I'm truly thankful for that opportunity.

Charity: [00:09:03] Right. Yeah.

Jana: [00:09:03] I met my best friend there!

Charity: [00:09:06] College besties. Always a good, right, thing. So off of that, what made you decide to attend law school and why did you choose the school that you attended?

Jana: [00:09:17] Okay, so it kind of goes back to my introduction of the real reason.

My mom's story really had a very impact on me at a young age. I can remember her telling me that story. We were actually on our way home from church. And it's kind of weird, Charity, because we live in Conyers, but my mom is from Louisville and we would go back and forth every second and fourth Sunday. My family would travel back to Louisville, to the church that I went to Jones Grove Missionary Baptist church.

That's my home church. That's my mom's home church. And so we were actually on our way home when my mom told me that story. And I just.

Charity: [00:09:51] Can you give the audience an idea of how long that trip takes.

Jana: [00:09:54] Two hours

Charity: [00:09:55] Wow! 2 hours for Jesus!

Jana: [00:09:59] Put [00:10:00] no, no distance, no miles on Jesus.

Charity: [00:10:01] Oh yes. There we go.

Jana: [00:10:04] So yeah, I was a little girl. We were in the car and she was telling me the story and, you know, I just, I didn't really, it didn't really click until I started thinking, I was like, wait. You got a baby at 15? You had my sister at 15 and I was just like, this is you?

Like, you're telling me about you. You know? And so ,  that's where the humble beginning kind of started was just with her story and how I was just so intrigued by the fact that she made change. Although if you asked her today, she would tell you that that was not her intent. She was not trying to be, you know, Rosa Parks.

She wasn't trying to do anything like that. She was just trying to play basketball. But that's really how change starts. Right. You know, Rosa Parks was just, I was tired. You know, I just didn't, I just didn't want to get up. I had a long day from work and I just was tired, but that's how change starts. And so I was like, mom, you, you really, you changed, you changed history, you changed the way that people thought in that Southern town.

And so she was like, well, if you wanna [00:11:00] say I did then okay. And so,  That's where it started. And then as I began to go through, you know, middle school, high school, trying to really figure out, getting ready for college. You you've been there. You've done that where they're like, okay, what are you doing? You gotta map out your life? Come on now.

Charity: [00:11:15] We're so young, we don't know what we want to do. We're learning.

Jana: [00:11:20] Still learning, always kind of was in the back of my mind. Like I want to be a lawyer. Right. And so, my sister who's actually a nurse was always pushing, pushing, pushing medical field. She was pushing medical field for me. You'll be great as a dentist. I want you to be a dentist.

Charity: [00:11:38] Wow! That's so specific.

 Jana: [00:11:41] And I was like, why a dentist? And she was like, well, because they get to choose their own hours coming in when they want to, they make a lot of money, it's not really all that hard work. And I was like, okay, it sounds good. You know, they make a lot of money. But then as I started to think about the courses and classes that I would [00:12:00] have to take to get there, Charity, I'll be the first to say that I hate math.

Charity: [00:12:03] Yeah, same! That's why we went to law school, avoiding math!

Jana: [00:12:08] Avoiding math! Although, newsflash there is math in law if you're going to be your own own boss. You're going to open up your own shop and hang your own shingle. You're going to have to be able to, you know, know the business and the financial aspects.

But, but going back to that, so yeah, my sister wanted me to be a dentist and I was like, I don't want to take all these math classes. Like it's not for me. And so we always go back to the list. Our family has this thing where we, when we, when we're trying to make tough decisions, we make a list pros and cons.

What do you like, what do you dislike about it? And so I had all these things that I liked about being a lawyer. You know, I love to talk probably going to talk your head off. I like to write, I like to read I like to do research period. Not even just legal reasons, but just research. And I enjoy public speaking so much. Like I do a lot of public speaking at my church. And so that was on the, you know, that list. And then on the other side for a dentist, it was just, I [00:13:00] liked science one sentence. I like science. Okay. And so when we really boiled down to it, it was like, ehh it sounds like a lawyer.

And so I was like, well, that's where I was leaning toward always anyway. So I just kinda went with it and ran with it. And so got into undergrad, political science major on track. You asked me about the school that I, that I went to. So. that is a story in itself.

So getting ready to graduate undergrad. You know, everybody's again, it's kinda like high school trying to figure out what, what, what's the next step? What are we doing with our lives now? This is serious, we're adults like gone through four years. We've got to figure out life out, like today,

Charity: [00:13:43] Yep! Just thrown into the ocean!

Jana: [00:13:45] Right. So I was like, okay, well, I don't want to go law school. So, you know, you, you do the research, right? Again, I had no, no help. Nobody in my family could really tell me how to get to where I wanted to go. I just knew that I wanted to be a lawyer. So again, it goes back to just [00:14:00] research. Right? I'm trying to ask questions, trying to find somebody who's in the field, trying to talk to lawyers who've been there, done that, got a t-shirt you know. So I'm trying to do all that. And first thing is you gotta take the LSAT, right? Okay. And then it's like, you gotta look and see what, what schools you want to go you're interested in. I'm gonna be honest with you. I was interested in the top, you know, the top tier tier one school, you know, I was like, yeah, you know, I can go to Harvard!

Charity: [00:14:24] Everybody wants that number one!

Sounds great.

Jana: [00:14:27] Harvard Law Right! I can do that! Yeah. S o was in my last year and I had applied to 14 law schools.

Charity: [00:14:38] Wow.

Jana: [00:14:39] And I got rejected from every single one.

Charity: [00:14:42] Interesting. 

Jana: [00:14:43] And it was my advisor and my professor for four years who told me that I would not get into law school. And that was very disheartening. That was very discouraging disappointing. And I was just so heartbroken that I really couldn't [00:15:00] enjoy walking across the stage. Now, mind you, I graduated with honors. I had a great GPA, wonderful letters of recommendations, but my L SAT score sucked. I took the LSAT twice in the same year, made the same score. And then you, you find out that you could only take it, you know what is it? You could only take it so many times within a two-year span before you have to wait. And I was like, Oh no, this is not happening. Like, I am not waiting.

Like I got to go to law school. Like I can't... Jesus, I mapped out my life. Okay. Like, this is what I want to do. Like what's going on? Like, I have my plan. Yeah God's like, no, no, sweetheart. I'm sure you heard of the phrase, you know, we make plans and God laughs. So I actually did not get into any law school.

Like I said, I got rejected from all 14, graduated in 2014. I had to take a year off. I came back home. I was a college graduate. [00:16:00] I had my bachelor's degree, you know, I thought I was all that and a bag of chips. As my sister would say, I was like, yeah, I graduated. I should be able to find a job.

Right. You know, I should be able to, you know, do something, noteworthy in my field, legal assistant, paralegal, something! I just want to be in the environment. You know what I mean? Cause I know I'm going to law school. I know I am and I want to be in that environment. So why not start to look for jobs?

Yeah. Interview. Nobody will pick me up. And so I was like, okay, so what do I do now? I got, gotta get a job. My mom is like, yeah, you come back home. But you gotta be working, you gotta be doing something, And I'm like, okay. Right. What am I gonna do? I ended up working at Kroger Charity.

Charity: [00:16:43] Was it the Conyers Kroger?

Jana: [00:16:44] It was, yeah, it was the one on Salem Road.

Charity: [00:16:47] Wow.

Jana: [00:16:48] So humble beginning, you know, my story is all about humble beginnings. You know,  I walked in and I just was like, I cannot believe that this is. I'm a college graduate. I have a [00:17:00] degree and I'm working as a cashier at Kroger and it took my sister to tell me that you have to crawl before you can walk.

She said, this is a temporary position. Okay. Temporary inconvenience for permanent success.

Charity: [00:17:15] Oh my gosh. Say that again.

Jana: [00:17:17] Temporary inconvenience for permanent success. And so, you best believe every day I went to that job thinking you gotta crawl before you can walk, Jana. You gotta crawl before you can walk, Jana. And it was the best experience for me because it was so humbling.

I learned so much about people I learned so much about, just dealing with the ins and outs of people who will try to con you. You would think that we might, the grocery store would not try to con you, but you got people at the grocery store who will try to con you.

Yep. And so I was the type of person that took people for face value, and that was just like, what you say is what I believe. Right. I was like, Oh, your dog died. You need the dog food? Yeah sure I can give it to you for a [00:18:00] discount. You know what I mean? Like, well, you know, like just stuff that stuff that made no sense, Charity, didn't make no sense. And I'd just be like, yeah, I can try to do, you know, what can I do for you? Wow. When I tell you that my mom was like, you got to stop letting these people get over on you. And again, it was preparation for what I needed because you know, dealing with the legal field, especially with criminal defense, your, a clients are going to tell you some of the craziest wildest stories and expect for you to believe them and you got to look at them and be like, yes, sir, I'm your attorney.

Come on. What was really going on?  What's the truth. You can't be so gullible. You can't be so naive. And so I think that God used that year for me to groom me, to get me out of the naive mindset and being so gullible.  And so, second time around, I also use that time to hire a tutor because my LSAT score was so horrible.

 I paid for my tutor out of my own pocket. My mom said, listen, if this is what you want to do, then you'll take it seriously. And I say that because she paid for the [00:19:00] LSAT, tutoring program through Kaplan. Okay. And I went to Emory and I took that during the summer Going into my senior year, I took it. And you know, that course is expensive.

Charity: [00:19:12] It is, it is These test prep companies are no joke.

Jana: [00:19:16] No joke. And so my mom was like, listen, I cannot afford to dish out the same amount of money that I did for you to not take it seriously. So she said, I think that you need to really, if this is something that you want, you know. You'll get it done.

And I did, I paid for my own tutor. I use that money from Kroger to pay for my tutor, found him on Craigslist. He was a professor too, out of Oglethorpe University. And I went there once a week and we hammered it out. And he prepped me for the L SAT and my score, I had an astronomical jump in point in my score.

And I was able to, to get into law school. I did not apply to 14 law schools the second time around Charity. I cut that number in half. I applied to seven , which for me is my favorite number because it's the number of [00:20:00] completion.  And so when. I got my acceptance letter, not from Florida Coastal, but from Charleston School of Law. I was like, I just need one.

I just need one. And I got the one, right. I got the one. And then I was like, I'm going to law school. I got accepted. I'm going to law school. And then I was hit with another roadblock because that school was dealing with some financial hardships and they didn't know if they were going to be able t Their doors are going to stay open. So here I am thinking, Lord,  all I need, it was one. I had the one, why are you closing the door? What happened? What did I do? And it was funny because it wasn't that He was shutting the doors saying you're not going to go to law school. It was just that was not the door for me to walk through.

And then it became, it was like maybe two or three weeks after I got back from touring the campus and then getting the news that they might be closing down that I got an email. And Florida Coastal had accepted [00:21:00] me and they were offering me a scholarship packet and . I was also waitlisted for University of Tennessee School of Law.

So now I was kind of in the process of okay. Do I want to wait there is going to be a seat available? Or do I, I want to just go ahead and solidify my seat now cause I have my acceptance letter. And then it became again, we go back to that list Charity that my family does and I have family in Jacksonville.

 So that was kind of the determining factor was that I would have someone there with me cause I'm the baby. And I was like, well, I don't know anybody in Tennessee. I'll be there by myself. At least I know somebody in Jacksonville. I've got some cousins in Jacksonville that I can kind of, you know, call on if needed.

And that was the best decision. So that was a reason why I went to Florida, coastal. The best experience that I've ever had. Shout out to Flocko.

Charity: [00:21:47] I love it. That was such a beautiful story. your story telling skills are so amazing. That's part of being a lawyer, I guess.

[00:22:00] Yeah. So tell us more about your law school experience. Were you involved in any clubs? Did you have like certain pivotal moments that really defined your success? 

Jana: [00:22:13] So law school is a different beast. As you know, Charity, law school is nothing like undergrad. It's nothing like high school. It is a whole entire world of its own.

I came in thinking, you know, I'm going to do entertainment law. I would do contract law, make a lot of money. Yeah, that was not the route around that guy. Happy.   I was involved in, but also I was involved in mock trial. I was involved in moot court. I did,  several internships .  I was a, what do you call it? They came up with like this leadership program that was like, they want to take all [00:23:00] like the top leaders from every organization, like mock trial court, BLSA, and just kinda like put us all into this group. I can't think of the name right now, it escapes me at this time, but I was a part of that. So yeah, I was heavily go ahead.

 And BLSA is the Black Law Students' Association for those who Charity: [00:23:16] don't know the acronym.

Jana: [00:23:18] Yeah and so I was involved in a whole lot, you know, I was doing a whole lot and that was what a lot o f my friends said and even some of you know, the practicing attorneys were like, well, you know, you really don't need to do a whole lot.

You just need to really focus on one thing, whether it's going to be mock trial, moot court, cause you really want to make sure that your grades that's the really important thing is your grades. Right. Whatever. I'm not saying whatever, I'm not saying that good, because it's true. Right?

Like you do need to focus on school. I mean, definitely want to make sure that you're that that GPA score is, is, is good. But I did it all and I was still able to manage to have a really good GPA. I graduated in the top 30% of my class. So I'm not saying that like for accolades, I'm just saying that for [00:24:00] people who are considering going to law school and feel like they can't have a life that is not true at all. You can do it.

Okay. It is about prioritizing time management and breathing.

Charity: [00:24:11] Say the last part again, breathing for sure.

Jana: [00:24:15] Breathing, right. It is stressful. Law school is very stressful, but you need those activities to kind of offset the stress. BLSA had so many events, you know ,  mock trial.  my second best friend.

I met her, actually I met her at church, but we were in both mock trial and moot court and we kicked butt. I mean, and we were still able to focus on our studies. So it's what you make it. Okay. if you want to do it, you can do it. Okay. And I'm not saying that studies are not important because they are. But it's called balance. And if you have balance, you'll be able to knock it out and be successful . Pivotal moments for me. Ooh. Wow. Really haven't thought about a pivotal moment. I guess how I got to becoming a criminal defense attorney is a pivotal moment. Cause [00:25:00] again, I told you I walked in the door thinking I was going to be this big, fancy entertainment lawyer who was going to be signing contracts for professional women's basketball players. Like that was, that was my thought process, but I'm gonna make some money.

Charity: [00:25:11] You never know. It might come up in the future. You might add it to your practice.

Jana: [00:25:17] You're absolutely right. Charity. But you know, you have your classes that you got to take your courses, and one of those courses is criminal law, right?

You know, the first semester I think it works the same way for every law school. You're going to take the torts, you going to take the property, you gonna take crim law. Some people do con law on their first semester or civil procedure. But that was the first semester right.

Criminal law was like, okay, whatever I already know I'm not going to be a criminal defense attorney. I was like, it's just a course. You know, I got in to the course and loved it. And it was a shock to me cause I was like, ah, I actually like this. And some of my friends were like, you like this, I'm like, yeah, it's interesting!

 Charity: [00:25:55] I was along with your friends, honestly, I was like, what is this class? Do I have to [00:26:00] take this. And then it was all over the bar exam. I was like, okay. I see why.

Jana: [00:26:05] Yes  I would tell you like my three top favorite courses in law school, criminal law crim procedure in con law. Wow. And my friends think I'm weird. They're like you are just weird

Charity: [00:26:15] You're a criminal defense attorney through and through.

Jana: [00:26:19] They're like, you're just weird. I'm like those classes are interesting cases.   It's all about the cases. Right. And so got in there and my professor. really was impressed because I scored the highest on our midterm exam. We had midterms. And so she was really, really impressed. And she approached me and said, Hey, have you considered like doing an internship for public defender's office or, you know, criminal defense attorney firm?

I was like, no, she was like, I really want you to consider it. And I'm like me? She was like, yes. She's was like you never thought about it. And I was like, to be honest with you. I just didn't think I had the grit to be a criminal defense attorney. I just, you know, some people have a negative [00:27:00] connotation of defense attorneys.

Some think that, you know, we're sneaky, we're sly as a fox, you know, we have no moral backing. We're just, no, you know. They're in bed with the defendant, you know. And so, I was like, I kinda was afraid to step into that role for fear of the negative connotations. Right.   But my perception, my thought process completely changed.

And I did my first internship at the public defender's office in Jacksonville, Florida, and I loved it. I loved it. Had a wonderful group of mentors. Shout out to Owen Schmidt, he is the chief down there i n Jacksonville. He was my mentor. And I just loved it. I loved being in court.

You know, I love wearing a suit. It was something about the power suit that just made me feel like I was Wonder Woman. You know, it was like, I could do anything with this power suit on.

Charity: [00:27:52] Olivia Pope in the white hat.

Jana: [00:27:56] And I literally refer to myself. A lot of my hashtags are, I'm a gladiator [00:28:00] in a suit because I definitely try to embody that.

Also to my clients, you know, I had a passion. I genuinely have a passion to help people. Like, that's just, I don't know if it just coincides with my sign, I'm a Cancer. And we just like to help people. I don't know. I just generally have a passion to help those who are in need. And so the fact that that is what the public defender's office we provide a public service. We are public servants, right. That is what we're supposed to be. To those who are less fortunate, we are their voice. And so I saw a lot of people that look like me, Charity, that did not know they had a right to an attorney. I saw a lot of people that look like me that did not have an eighth-grade education.

I saw a lot of people that look like me that didn't know that they had the most important right, which I believe is the right to be quiet and not say anything. And so I just saw all these people that did not know. And I was like, man, here is my opportunity. Right. Going back to what, you know, what I said, if I could just, just do half, half of something monumental.

And I was like, [00:29:00] here it is right here Jana. Here it is. This is what you can do. Okay. And so I just stuck with it. I interned there for 2L and 3L year.  No, no.

Beginning of the second semester of 1L year going into 2L year. And then I did my internship back at the public defender's office in Dekalb County back in Georgia my 3L yea r. The last semester of my 3L year.

Charity: [00:29:19] Now, did you commute or did you stay in Dekab to do that internship?

Jana: [00:29:24] Well, you know, I don't know if you're a school if your law school had this? We had a third year at home program. So if you were pretty much done with all of your  prerequisites like you were done with everything as far as like getting on track to graduate. And you just need a couple of courses here and there.

You could actually do your courses online and go back home in the state that  you plan to practice. And I'm a Georgia girl.

This was pre-COVID, like

Charity: [00:29:49] Pre all the law schools moving online.

Jana: [00:29:52] Yes, yes, yes, yes. So I packed up at the end of my first semester [00:30:00] 3L year. And we moved me back home to Georgia. And, you know, my friends were a little upset with me because they wanted me to stay in Florida. Like I had a, you know you have your study groups. And so I had a study group. And they were really like you're the only one that's taking the Georgia bar. Why do you want to take the Georgia bar? You should take the Florida bar.

And I'm like, first of all, if you haven't noticed Florida is one of the hardest bars.

I was like, not that I don't have any confidence in myself, but I just  can I take a stab at Georgia first before I start.

Charity: [00:30:30] There you go. One at a time.

Jana: [00:30:34] So I was a loan shark. I went back home. And I did my externship at the PD's office t same thing, you know, got so much experience. And I just say, you know, it kind of naturally flowed.

I was like, I'm looking for jobs at the PD's office. I said, that's where I want to start. You know, God is calling me into this profession. I want to do it. You know, I don't know what He has in store for me next, but this is where I am. And I, I [00:31:00] thoroughly enjoy being a criminal defense attorney. I really do.

It's it's different story, different day. You know, you know, I got stories for days with clients!

Charity: [00:31:09] And that Kroger experience definitely helped. Huh?

Jana: [00:31:14] When it don't make sense, I'm just looking at them. Like, sir it don't make sense. We gonna have to figure something out because you're not fooling me.

And if you're not fooling me, you're not going to be able to fool anybody else. So let's just, let's really get down to the chase, like what's really going on. Right. So, but yeah, that's kinda how it all started. You know!

Charity: [00:31:32] That's incredible! Before I get to the career part of the interview, let's talk about what advice you would give yourself back in law school and to anyone that's in law school. Now or thinking about it honestly.

Jana: [00:31:44] Okay. The first thing that I would tell myself and others who are considering or know for a fact they want to go to law school is you can do it. That is the first thing that I want to tell people. You can, you can do it. [00:32:00] The sky's the limit. You have the ability to do it. Do not let anyone tell you that you cannot .Llike I told you, I had a professor telling me that I wasn't going to get into law school and had I let that negatively affect me, I would not be where I am today. But I use that as motivation to say, yes, I can and I will and I did. Right. So I'm telling everyone who is, you know, really seriously contemplating going to law school. You can do it. You can do it.  

The second thing in law school, of course, it's going to be stressful. Okay. it's meant to be stressful. It is meant to take you to the breaking point where you are literally like, Oh my God, why am I here? If that's what it's, that's what it's intended for. Right. You're there to build resolve   resilience.

What I would advise people is to make sure that you take time for yourself, breathe, breathe! Have you can have fun. You can have a life in law school. And for me, I didn't think I could when I first started. [00:33:00] And I was, if you asked my sister, she would tell you that they should name the library after me.

She's like you were in that library from sun up to sun down. That's how I was. I ate, slept and breathed law school. And I felt like I couldn't really do anything besides law school. And it really took my friends to like pull me and pry me away  from you know, keeping my head in a book. Cause sometimes I would feel guilty.

I was like, y'all  we got a midterm. Y'all don't feel... we over here at taco Tuesday, like we gotta, we gotta test.

They're like Jana chill. We're going to be okay. Like, you're gonna be o  have nothing to worry about. And I'm like, yeah, I want to go back and study. I want to go back. And it was just kind of, you know, that's how it was like for the first, you know, first pretty much first semester. Yeah, I was like in that library every single day from sun up to sun down. Sometimes I wouldn't eat lunch or dinner and that's not good.

If you are currently in law school and you are doing that, that's a no! That's a no, no. You've got to take time to breathe. You [00:34:00] got to come up for air, have fun. Okay.

Charity: [00:34:03] Those three years go by so fast.

 Jana: [00:34:05]  What else would I tell myself if I, if I, if I knew  You're going to face challenges.

You're going to face, you know, you're going to have roadblocks, you're going to have adversities to overcome. You're going to do courses that you're not interested in. I mean, for me, it was property and trusts and estates, those are my two worst classes. Like I, Jesus!   

If I had to hear anything again about, you know, A devises will to B, I was going to flip out. I was just like, what is this? Like,

I don't even know. I don't want, I don't want to deal with all of that. What is this? What is a remainder? What is,

what is all that? Right. Huh? RAP

Okay. pass next. but you're gonna deal with that. You're going to deal with some challenges, adversities, courses you're not gonna like. But you went to law school for a reason. Right? Whatever that reason is, whatever that purpose was, I say, dig [00:35:00] deep, find it and use that as your motivation to keep pushing through.

 That's what got me across the finish line. It was just knowing that I want to be a lawyer. I want to be a lawyer. So if I want to be a lawyer, no matter what roadblock, no matter what adversity, no matter what I'm hit with, I'm going to stand tall and I'm going to dig deep and push through, you know . Last thing I would say is kind of going back to what I just previously said is you know, I'm, I'm a Christian, I'm a believer. God has given me so much to be thankful for. But I have to make sure that I even in the midst of studying and crying. Let's tell it like it is! A late night. Staying up two, three o'clock in the morning, writing papers, reading, case breifing whatever it may have been, I had to get time to God. I had to give, I had to give time to my higher power because I would not be where I am without His grace and His mercy  [00:36:00] sustaining me.

And so those will be my tidbits as far as trying to push through to get to the finish line for, you know, graduating. And then once you do, once they call your name, it's a feeling that, you know, I'm still kind of in. We're we're just talking about graduating lawsuit, right? We're not talking about the bar.

We're just like graduating law school. You're like, who I know for me, I was like glory and I literally shouted that when they called my name, like, I was like, glory because that is, that is what I felt glory. And so yeah, those would be my little tidbits as far as the la 

Charity: [00:36:30] So many g ems. So let's get to your, career. You mentioned you're a criminal defense attorney. Where are you working now? And, what do your daily tasks involve?

Jana: [00:36:40] Okay. So I am currently a lead attorney at Lister  Lister & Dennis, which is a law firm that has two offices in the Clayton Jonesborough area. And then the Henry County McDonough area.

And I serve in the McDonough area. Typical days go from anything from having jail court doing first [00:37:00] appearances or bond hearings are what they're  usually called . You know, when a person gets arrested, they have a certain amount of time to go before a judge on a bond hearing. And so, you know, bond hearings. We work in the state court of Henry County. So we only deal with misdemeanors. Now mind you, I was a public defender for about a year, so I do have some felony experience as well, but we per se only handle the misdemeanors. So that's driving while license suspended, that's your DUI, that's your theft by shoplifting, possession of marijuana, less than an ounce cases, battery simple battery, family violence cases.  Those are the typical cases that we typically will see that come across our desk. Again, it's like prepping for motions hearings, you know, motions  for modified bond conditions, motions to suppress ,  responding to the state's motions to revoke bond.

Let's see, typical day would be, obviously it's dealing with clients, you know, that's the crux of it, right? You have to deal with clients. There's no way for me not to do my job and not interact with my client. So definitely doing a lot of phone [00:38:00] calls, conferencing legal research, a lot of diving through the discovery packets, watching video evidence if there is video evidence, negotiating with the state on some cases where I know that, you know, this probably isn't going to be one that's going to trial , trial prep. Again, we're not doing trials because of COVID, but you know, when we do resume back doing trials, we'll have a slew of them because the system is really ba So we will be, I can foresee our judges being very excited to have multiple trial calendars throughout the year, just to catch up on the backlog.

But yeah, those are some of the typical tasks.  , we do have to do a little bit of paperwork too, though. That's why I said, you know, we went to law school not to do not to do math, but if you're doing, if you're working in the private sector which we are court appointed. So I, I want to preface that. So I do work for a private law firm, but we do handle court appointments. So we're kind of [00:39:00] like public defenders. You know, in a sense, because if you can't afford one, we get appointed to you, but we do have to do billing. So I do have to crunch numbers, even though I don't like math, I still am required to, you know, add two plus two still equals four basics basic.

So, but yeah, those are some of my normal duties. Going to court, you know , obviously arguing making arguments before the judge. And I think that's the, that's my joy. I do not like, and it's so ironic because I want ed to be an entertainment lawyer and I wanted to be a contract lawyer and they sit behind their desk and I can't stand sitting behind my desk.

Like, I like putting on a suit and again, Charity, that may change, you know, our interests change our desires and passions sometimes change. But for now I am excited about going to court. You know, I love picking out my suit. And I love just being in front of the judge, you know, it's just something, again, it kind of goes back to that power, you know, that power suit, and, you know, gladiator in a suit, Olivia Pope with the white hat [00:40:00] type thing. It's like, yeah, I'm coming in for business today.

 So yeah, that's probably the most, like one of the best things about being a criminal defense attorney is the fact that I get to to go to court and be in front of a judge and just argue for my client, you know, all about advocacy.

Charity: [00:40:12] Yeah. So in the criminal law field, what's kind of like your outlook on the whole like the field itself.

And just like, especially in this current moment with the revitalized social justice movement. And just kind of conversations around representation in the law and Black people being advocates for other Black people. 

Jana: [00:40:36] So, I'm just going to be, you know, direct, str aightforward kinda, you know, straight give you no chaser . The criminal justice system is flawed. You know, it's not perfect. It's not a perfect system. Sometimes I get frustrated as an attorney , especially as a Black female attorney ,  just by some of the recommendations that come across my desk.

And because of the fact that, you know, the clients [00:41:00] that I do see look like me. A lot of them look like me. It's, it's,

It's a reminder that yes, there has been some movement of change , but we have a long way to go. And I'm definitely not trying to put shade or, you know, bad talk or bad mouth anybody or anyone, but there is disparity.  It doesn't take a rocket science to figure that out.

There is some real disparity in the sentencing , plea offers, plea deal. I mean, there's a disparity all across the board. And it does get frustrating. I get, I get angry sometimes because it's like, I'm having to talk to my clients about why they got pulled over, you know, and sometimes it is, you know, you were driving while Black.

 There's no other, you know explanation for it was that you were driving while Black. And that's unfortunate, right? That's that's horrible. It's not fair. It's not right. And I, and I'm right there with you. I agree with you. So let's see if there's anything that we can do to fight the system. Let's see if there's something that we can, you know, was the [00:42:00] stop legitimate, you know, or was it just a driving while black? Can we get this case thrown out? You know, that's what kind of goes through my mind as I'm, as I'm dealing with these cases. But yeah, it's a flawed system.

We're going through a lot right now, as far as Black Lives Matter movement, you know the fight for equality and change. It is, it's a lot and I am glad that I'm in the profession that I'm in right now. Right. Even though I do get frustrated, even though I see that there is injustice, I mean, just Breonna Taylor,  you know,Ahmaud Aubrey, George Floyd, just the name of few.

I mean, you, you get tired, you get tired of seeing that on your TV. You know, every time you turn on the TV, there's just so many names and it does get disheartening. But what I have to do to get up and put a suit back on and want to fight and say that I tell myself everyday when I go to work, if I can just help one person.

 Just one person, right? Just one. Then I feel like I've done my job for [00:43:00] today. And even if it was just a small help, whether it's I got your bond reduced. I got the no contact condition on your bond changed no contact to no violent contact. You know. I got the judge to recall a warrant because you, accidentally missed co urt those, those are little wins for me that kind of give me the ammunition and the fuel to keep fighting the big war because it is a war, right.

We are constantly in a war right now. And so what I use to continue to fight in the war is the small little battles that I do win. and I know that I'm not gonna win every time. I know that I'm going to lose. In fact, some people will say, you know, why are you a defense attorney, because all y'all do is lose. And I don't look at it that way. I look at it as for me an opportunity to educate, right. I want to educate our community, especially the Black community on our rights, because we have rights that nobody can take away from us. And we need to know those rights, right. To have an opportunity to educate, but I also have an opportunity to advocate as well.

And so that is [00:44:00] why I do what I do is because I want to help people. And again, it kinda goes back to the same saying if I just help one person, then you know, all it does is take one little catalyst for change to start to happen. I mean, it took Rosa park saying I'm tired. I don't want to give up my seat today.

It took my mom saying, I just want to play basketball to affect change. And no matter how small it is, it still changed  now. With that, I want to kind of give a c aveat that yes, we have a long way to go Charity. We have a long way. We're, we're, we're nowhere near where, where we need to be or where we as a people would like to be.

Again, it's disheartening, but it is beautiful to see people that look like me that want to help and want to continue to fight for the change and understand that they too have skills and abilities to help in this, continued fight. So I take joy and solace in that, and knowing that there are people that support me and I support them as well.

So yeah, it's. I [00:45:00] mean, Hey, you know, as well as I know that we are, we are in a constant battle. We are in a constant war, but even with the constant battle in the war, we still have to be mindful that all is not lost. Right. And everybody's not bad. Everybody's okay. You know? Yes, there is police brutality.

Yes. But not all cops are bad cops, not all people are bad people, but some are. And so we can't just put them all in a category or put them all in a box and say, well, that's how they all think that's how they all operate. because it's not true. You know, it's kind of like saying like all defense attorneys, all they want to do is just get to take your money or public defenders.

They suck. They're not going to, you know, I'm going to hire me a real attorney. You know, I hear that all the time. I'm going to hire me a real attorney and I'm like, I don't take offense to that because I have a Georgia license. So you

I said if you wanna go spend your money, that's perfectly No shade toward me whatsoever. But you know, so people like to generalize and they like to categorize, but we have to [00:46:00] be mindful that not everybody has those same feelings. Not everybody operates the same way.

But we just gotta continue to fight.

Charity: [00:46:06] And it's the system that is the main thing that needs to change.

Jana: [00:46:10] Yeah it's the system We are fighting a broken system. Okay. We are, I mean, I deal with it every single day. You know, from the bare basics of just the bond hearing. Right. That is the very beginning of a case is, you get arrested and then you go in on bond.

So it's kind of like, whatever your bond amount is, that kind of shapes the way, things kind of turn out, you know. You get a high bond, you're not going to be able to make bail. You're going to be sitting there for a long time. You're more inclined to plea out. I mean, it's not rocket science, you know. You get a low bond. Okay. You're out on bond. You kind of have a war thought. I want to say, okay. Yeah, I'm out on bond now. I want to fight more because I have time. You know. The logic, there is not misplaced, so. And I see it every day.

I see it every day. And so, like I said, it kind of goes back to if I can just help one person. and I, I truly believe that I've done what I've been called to do. So yeah.

[00:47:00] Charity: [00:46:59] Yeah, I definitely applaud you. You're doing the Lord's work out there. Seriously [laughs]

Jana: [00:47:07] I mean, and that's kinda how I look at it. You know, we are public servants. And if we are to emulate or we are to embody the Christian principles. You know, as we are getting ready for the Christmas holidays celebrating the Cardenas. Yes. Getting ready for the birth of Jesus Christ.

He himself who took form of man, and came down as a servant. Right. He served the people. If He could do it. Why can't I . And like I said, Charity, you know, am I going to be a court appointed attorney for the rest of my life? I don't know, that's up to  the man upstairs. But I know for the time being that I am doing something that I truly have a passion for and that I want to help.

So if there's any way that I can help you within reason and within the confines of what I'm legally obligated to do. I have to tell people that. Always that legal disclaimer! Right, right. Like, can you post my bond? I'm like, sorry, sir. I [00:48:00] cannot, I can call somebody though, but I cannot post, like, I'm sorry.  You a lawyer, you got it.

Even if I did have it, sir, I am legally. I can't, I'm sorry, legally and ethically I can't. Then what what's gonna happen? If I lose my license? I can't help you.

Charity: [00:48:17] Yup. You got to tell them

Jana: [00:48:20] You have to put the condfound in there, you know . If I can help you within the confines of what I'm obligated to do, of course, I'm going to do what I can.

Charity: [00:48:28] Of course. Yeah. So as we kind of wind down and get to the end of the episode Where do you see your career in the next decade? Especially with legacy building and what accomplishments you have on your goal list intentions?

Jana: [00:48:43] Ten years? A whole decade, Charity. Man! I'm still trying to get through 2020.

Charity: [00:48:49] Well, that's a good point. And who knows what 2021 will bring, but I like to look at the future.  You know,

Jana: [00:48:58] I don't know. [00:49:00] I would like to say that in the 10 years, I would have liked to grow more as an attorney . hone in really on the craft and the skill. You know, they all say, it's about building your lawyering skills, your lawyering skills. And I'm just like, okay, I didn't know that was a word.   I wanna definitely make sure that I am maximizing on that. Maximizing on my potential. Again, like I said, I don't know how long I'm going to be in criminal defense, but I would like to be the best criminal defense attorney that I could possibly be. I don't look at being the best criminal defense attorney as necessarily the win-loss column cause that doesn't really reflect if you're a good attorney or not cause some attorneys do lose some good attorneys do lose. I mean, again, we're we're in a system where, if you go to trial, you got to understand that you are in front of six people on misdemeanors, 12 people's on felonies, and you could have painted the whole entire courtroom with eloquent arguments and really, really, really, really did a wonderful job as far as advocacy, right? [00:50:00] Everything was to the T everything, your opening statement, your cross-examinations, everything, your closing was beautiful. And those six or 12 people could still come back and find your client guilty. And so I don't necessarily consider win-loss column  the determining factor of how good or great of an attorney you are. I just think it's about maximizing and building on your skills, learning from your mistakes , doing the legal research, finding things that you can improve on strengthening your weaknesses. Right? So in the next 10 years, I want to be the best attorney, whether it's criminal offense or whether it's something else.

I just want to be the best attorney that I can be. Right. And I would hope to have put a little put a little punch in the solicitor's office over there. No shade to my, my comrades.  I don't like to say that we are enemies because we're not  I have a respect for prosecutors.

I do. They have a job to do just like I have a job to do. So I don't slight them. But I do. You know, we have our little banter that we do over there. So I would like to have put a [00:51:00] punch to some of my solicitors over there just to kind of let them know that, Hey Oh, Jana is coming.

Jesus got to prepare! [laughter]

The gladiator suit. Yes, yes. Yeah. So career wise, I don't know, you know, maybe yeah. Maybe somewhere along the lines in the next ten years if it's in God's will or so I'll have a "Your honor", you know, we don't know, we don't know. A judgeship! Yeah. We don't  know, but...Let's manifest that!

You know, you gotta speak it into existence, there's power in the tongue. So yeah, I mean, if it's in God's will. But honestly I'm on a journey Charity and God is the head and He's leading it. And so I, I end with thy will be done, Lord, whatever you have me to do, that is what I'm going to do, because that is what you have aligned and called me to do.

I know that probably doesn't answer your question in a, in a really hard technical fast answer, but I'm going to give you the law school answer it depends.

[00:52:00] Charity: [00:52:00] I'm sure our audience will appreciate that. So, I like to end each episode by asking guests who is your This can be a fellow colleague, a mentor, your bestie from law school or any legal queen that you're in. So who's your Sistah in Law?

Jana: [00:52:20] My Sistah in Law and she knows it is my best friend from law school. Shout out to Ciera Gainey. That is my rock. We, we went through some good times and some bad times in law school. But she is phenomenal, phenomenal advocate. Oh my God. She has a gift that. I say, girl, I want to grow up. I want to be just like you. And she'll look at me and be like, she'll be like, Jay, what are you talking about? I'm like, I was going to be like, you she's like, no, I want to be like you.

We inspire, we motivate , she's my prayer warrior. And I'm so excited and proud and happy for where she is in her legal career. And I just know that she is going to [00:53:00] continue to soar and do so well and just reach new heights, but she would have to be my sister-in-law. I mean, I have, I have some other names that I could throw out to you, but if you're asking for like my top, she's going to be my top.

Charity: [00:53:12] Yeah.  thank you so much for this conversation.

Jana: [00:53:16] Thank you, Charity, for having

me. It was fun. I hope I didn't talk your ear off. Cause you know, I'm a lawyer. So.

Charity: [00:53:21] So many gems, so many gems and we needed that lawyerly storytelling. So where can the people find you? Do you have social media or where people can follow your work?

 Jana: [00:53:33] I don't have a business page, but you know, I am on Instagram. Let me think about my handle. I'm like what where what is my. At j that's J a Y D E E three one. So you can find me there. Yeah, you can look me up. I am on our business page, Lister, Holt, &  Dennis. And that's L I S T E R Holt, H O L T  D E N N I S.

Just click on team scroll down and you should see me.  We have some [00:54:00] wonderful attorneys in the office and we are a team we truly, truly, truly are a team.

So, yeah, that's where you can, you can find me if you want.

Charity: [00:54:07] Beautiful. Thank you so much, Jana.

Jana: [00:54:10] You're welcome. Thank you again so much, Charity, for having me. This has been fun.

Charity: [00:54:14] Yes.

 Jana's story is incredible! I hope that you found some inspiration in her words.  Jana. And I spoke back in December of 2020, so I'm excited for y'all to finally hear from her. And hence the Christmas reference as well.  Please be sure to follow Jana on social media. And if you're listening on Apple podcasts, please leave us a review. So more people can hear these powerful stories.  Let us know your thoughts and subscribe and follow to get updates on the next episode.

 As always share the podcast with someone you think may be interested or who may benefit from these discussions.  And follow us on social media on Instagram @sistahsinlaw, on Twitter @sistahsinlawpod and [00:55:00] like us on Facebook.  For a full transcript of today's episode, go to WW W dot sistahs That's spelled S I S T a H S I N L a w.org.

 Thank you for tuning in with me and stay tuned for the next episode. Until then. Peace and love.