Episode 3: Sistahs in Music Law

Episode Transcript

[00:00:20]Charity Gates: [00:00:20] Hey, y'all welcome to episode three of the Sistahs in Law podcast. I'm your host Charity Gates. This is a podcast featuring intimate [00:00:30] conversations with Black women in law. Every other week, we will listen to stories from Black women about their trials, triumphs and tribulations, navigating careers in the legal field. Today, I've got a multitalented guest who has had a robust career even at such a young age.

[00:00:50] Erika Stallings currently works as an assistant general counsel at Facebook with the focus on counseling on the use of music across [00:01:00] the Facebook family of apps. She is a graduate of Georgetown University Law Center and the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill where she attended as a Morehead Cain Scholar. In addition to her legal career, she is a freelance writer who focuses on the experience of Black women in the workplace and in assessing health and has been published in the New York Times, the Washington Post, O Magazine among many others. She's also a BRCA 2 [00:01:30] mutation carrier and serves as the founding co-chair of the Basser Center for BRCA Young Leadership Council. This interview I did with Erika was my first official guest recording for the podcast. And I did this back in December 2020. I'm so excited to finally release this episode and share Erika's extraordinary journey with the audience, as well as her insights on the importance of networking in your legal career.

[00:01:58] And [00:02:00] just a little disclaimer. None of the statements made during the course of this episode constitutes legal advice. All of Erika's statements are made in her personal capacity and reflect her own opinion. Not those of her employer. So, let's get into this interview.

[00:02:16] All right.  Hi Erika. Thank you for joining the Sistahs in Law podcast today.

[00:02:27]Erika Stallings: [00:02:27] Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. Thank you [00:02:30] so much for inviting me to participate.

[00:02:32]Charity Gates: [00:02:32] I'm super excited for the audience to hear about your incredible career and multi-faceted talents.

[00:02:39]Erika Stallings: [00:02:39] I'm really flattered, I guess, sometimes, which I think we'll talk about in the questions. I think sometimes I still feel like even at my age, I'm sort of like just throwing things at the wall to see what works.

[00:02:51] Charity Gates: [00:02:51] Don't we all at some point?  So, I like to start off all my episodes by asking each guest, what is your origin [00:03:00] story? Where are your people from? Where are you from? What's your background?

[00:03:04] Erika Stallings: [00:03:04] Yeah. I saw that question yesterday. And so, before I answer, are you from the South? Cause that's a very Southern. Okay, good.

[00:03:10] Charity Gates: [00:03:10] Yes, I am.

[00:03:11] Erika Stallings: [00:03:11] She's she Southern, cause that's a question. My mom was, I asked her I'm like, where are your people from? So, my people are from Eastern North Carolina.

[00:03:20] I grew up in a town called Goldsboro. Which is if you've ever been to North Carolina, it's about an hour, hour and a half from the Raleigh-Durham area. Right.

[00:03:29] Charity Gates: [00:03:29] I have cousins [00:03:30] there.

[00:03:30] Erika Stallings: [00:03:30] If you're traveling east, if you've ever been in the outer banks, you know, it's also like sort of two hours from Wilmington, outer banks. But very rural, maybe only 50,000 people, if that. So yeah, that's where my, the majority of my family actually still is to this day.

[00:03:47]Charity Gates: [00:03:47] Yeah, I like to ask that question because I feel like knowing a person's background kind of gives you a sense of, like, where they're from and in a way kind of informs what they might do in the future or what [00:04:00] they're predisposed to or might not do because of something that they learned in their past.

[00:04:05] So I think that's really good way to kind of situate a person. The next question is what made you decide to attend law school? And why did you choose the school you went to?

[00:04:15] Erika Stallings: [00:04:16] Yeah, so that's a good question. A question sometimes I'm like, why did I go to law school? Because now I have all these loans. And anyway…So I actually originally went to college thinking I wanted to go to medical school. [00:04:30] And, you know, probably like a lot of people could not get through the science classes.

[00:04:34] Right. I actually got like an F in Organic Chemistry when I was a freshman. So, I sort of, you know, after, after that semester I started really sort of re-shifting and taking a lot of classes in political science, which ultimately became my major. I sort of also found like a mentor in the political science department. But my junior year of undergrad I spent a semester living in Cape Town, South Africa through a study abroad program and the summer before. Yeah. [00:05:00] And the summer before that, I had spent a summer living in Eastern Europe studying the role of international organizations impulse conflict rebuilding. So, I think between those two experiences, I got very interested in the law and the way that law can be used to like shape policy and like shape institutions. So that's when I decided at a law school.  With respect to where I chose to go to law school, which was Georgetown University Law Center in Washington, D.C. I actually really wanted to be in New York very badly.

[00:05:26] So I had mostly applied to schools in New York and got wait-listed at Columbia and [00:05:30] NYU. But Georgetown was like, in terms of sort of the ranking, like the top school that I got into, also gave me a scholarship money. And, also, I knew that they had a really good track record of placing graduates in school in New York. And as someone who had like lived in a small town, I was like, Oh, this is like a good transition. I'll go from like Chapel Hill to D.C., hopefully eventually to New York.

[00:05:49] Charity Gates: [00:05:50] And so you went to UNC Chapel Hill. What kind of informed your decision to stay in North Carolina?

[00:05:58] Erika Stallings: [00:05:59] Yeah. [00:06:00] So, I love UNC so much. Like, I think it is one of the best places to go to college. And for me, the reason I made that decision when I was no, I must have been a junior because I had taken the PSAT. So, when you know, I think everybody knows, like after you take the PSATs, you start getting all these like letters from schools.

[00:06:17] So, I got an invitation to go to UNC for the day and like visit. So, me and my mom went and my mom went and did it all the like official stuff, right? Like the tour sat through the financial aid office presentation, whatever. And I just actually [00:06:30] like sat in the middle of campus all day or like half the day.

[00:06:33] And I just like wound up talking to a lot of people about why they went to school there. And I was just like, Oh, this is just such a great place.  I mean, I also got a scholarship to UNC. I went to UNC as a Morehead Scholar, which is like the highest academic scholarship that they give out. I mean, so that helped a lot, right, to not have to worry about tuition money and spending money. But I really, it's like as cheesy as this sounds, like, I always tell people, I really think of UNC as like my Hogwarts. [00:07:00] It is like one of the first places where I was like, Oh, like, I feel like myself. I feel understood. You know, I met my best friend there right.

[00:07:07] Who actually, you know, now is a doctor at UNC hospitals. So yeah. Sorry, I could go, like, I'm hoping to get married in Chapel Hill if I can find a venue in Chapel Hill, like when it's safe to do so.

[00:07:18]Charity Gates: [00:07:18] That sounds so beautiful! Chapel Hill is a beautiful place.

[00:07:21]Erika Stallings: [00:07:21] Yeah. I, I stan.

[00:07:24]Charity Gates: [00:07:24] And we also love a Hogwarts moment.

[00:07:27]Erika Stallings: [00:07:27] I dunno, it's interesting. I think in like the Trump years, people [00:07:30] were really, really overdoing the Harry Potter analogies, but sometimes, sometimes it's appropriate.

[00:07:34] Charity Gates: [00:07:35] So you attended Georgetown Law Center in D.C. How would you describe your law school experience?

[00:07:42] Erika Stallings: [00:07:43] Yeah, it's really interesting. I have thought a lot about law school recently like over the past couple of years and how I treated it.  And, you know, first it's like three years and I think those three years go by really quickly. You know, something that they did that was also super interesting is that I did an alternative.

[00:07:57] So Georgetown actually was one of these [00:08:00] schools like back in the eighties was really trying to introduce progressive legal education. So, they had come up with this re-imagining of the first year curriculum that included like critical race theory and all this other stuff, right. And they were gonna, they piloted it to see if it would work school-wide and it didn't, but they decided to just keep it as a section you can opt into.

[00:08:18]So I did that I did section 3. And which is kind of really interesting to me now, because over the past year, I think there's been a lot of talk about how do you potentially redo legal education in a way that's more progressive and accounts for, [00:08:30] you know, racism in the legal system. So, I think Georgetown was probably a little bit ahead of their time on that.

[00:08:34]I will say that when you do section three, people at Georgetown are like, Oh, you must be a weirdo because you're doing section three. Why are you doing section three.

[00:08:40] Charity Gates: [00:08:40] Is it like the hippie section?

[00:08:43]Erika Stallings: [00:08:43] It's like stereotyped that way that it's like the hippie section. Although I think in terms of what people go on to do, right?  It's the same mix of people who go into Big Law or go into public service or whatever.

[00:08:53] I mean, I have some classmates from my section who are doing really interesting things.  I was in law school during the 2008 financial crisis. So, I [00:09:00] certainly think that that impacted the experience in the sense of, you know, I remember flying, I was like in L.A. The day Lehman Brothers collapsed because I was there to interview for a job out there. And I was like in the hotel room and it was like Lehman brothers collapses. And like all the firms I interviewed with post-Lehman, you know, did not get offers. I did get offers from the place that I'd interviewed before. So, I think for me, and just like a lot of people, the law school experience was also very colored by that stress of like, you going to get a job?

[00:09:27]Even if you get the job, is it your job still going to be there? [00:09:30] Are you gonna get deferred. So, yeah, but I really enjoyed it. similar to undergrad. I have a lot of friends from law school that I'm really close with and I kind of feel like law school is probably where, like my current personality was probably the most developed or those feel like my most formative years if that makes sense.

[00:09:45]I will say  I don't think it was as sophisticated in thinking about race as in law school, as I am now. And, you know, in Georgetown it is like actually fairly diverse in terms of law schools. I think it was

[00:09:55] Charity Gates: [00:09:55] Oh, wow.

[00:09:55] Erika Stallings: [00:09:55] like 7 or 8% black students, which is actually pretty good for a large law school. So [00:10:00] yeah, but it was, you know, I enjoyed it. Um, and I, and as I mentioned, I got scholarship money.

[00:10:04]Charity Gates: [00:10:04] Yeah, money's always helpful especially for law school.

[00:10:08]Erika Stallings: [00:10:08] Very helpful.

[00:10:09]Charity Gates: [00:10:09]  Were you involved in like student groups or how did you find friends? How did you find community?

[00:10:16] Erika Stallings: [00:10:16] Yeah. So, it's interesting. So, I was in section three and I do think because of the fact that everyone thinks you're a hippie is like, you kind of like bond as a section. And so, right. So I had, I had that group of friends and then for whatever reason, I had [00:10:30] just kind of like made about like meeting people, like an orientation mixer and got really friendly with a bunch of people who are like, not in my section and we sort of like became a friend group very early on in my 1L year.  In terms of like, did I do activities? I was certainly in BLSA Black Law Students' Association for anyone who's listening.  And I did compete in the Frederick Douglass Moot Court Competition through National Black Law Students' Association in my 3L year. I did a clinic which I'd certainly recommend, I will say that was part of the other reason I went to Georgetown. Georgetown is [00:11:00] like really well known for their clinical program. So, my 3L year I did a clinic in the Institute for Public Representation Clinic.

[00:11:06] And essentially what I was doing in that clinic was providing legal services to organizations that were seeking to petition the Federal Communications Commission. And. Yeah, I'm just trying to, you know, it's interesting, right? Cause I, I have a really solid group of friends from law school. And if I really try to sit down and think about like how we all met, I think it was really just like, kind of like stroke of luck because Georgetown, you know, we used to do like keg on the quad every Wednesday.

[00:11:29] And then [00:11:30] we used to do like the thirsty Thursdays, like the bar hopping. and I will say in terms of like activities, I think something that did bring a lot of people together is... so, you know, like I was in school in 2007, right, started fall 2007 and I graduated in 2010. That was when Obama was running for office.

[00:11:45] So a bunch of us in 2008 would get together on the weekends and go knock on doors and do canvassing in Virginia. Cause like the really big push that year was to turn Virginia blue, which it did. So actually, from that effort, I had two classmates who [00:12:00] actually eventually started actually a very successful nonprofit called Young Invincibles.

[00:12:05] The goal of Young Invincibles is to be like an AARP advocacy organization for people ages 18 to 35, right, who often their issues maybe don't get the same sort of bully pulpit. And so I mean, probably like if in the history books, I can say that I organized the first fundraiser for Young Invincibles like, I remember being like, all right, let's just find a bar somewhere and charge people like $25 for you guys are getting off the ground, like we'll make it work.

[00:12:28] Charity Gates: [00:12:28] Very cool. Crowdsourcing!

[00:12:29] Erika Stallings: [00:12:29] So yeah, I [00:12:30] do think, yeah, I do think that like kind of advocacy volunteer work that a lot of people were doing both during the campaign and then post-campaign you know, probably like really also built those relationships.  You know, I did the Vagina Monologues when I was... Did I do it all three years? Yeah. I did all three years. So

[00:12:47] Charity Gates: [00:12:47] In law school?! Wow!

[00:12:49]Erika Stallings: [00:12:49] Yeah,  we would do I hope they still do it. At Georgetown Law does like a Vagina Monologues production every, um, like they do it keyed to like Valentine's Day.

[00:12:57]Charity Gates: [00:12:57] That is pretty progressive for a law school. [00:13:00] If I must say.

[00:13:02]Erika Stallings: [00:13:02] Oh, right. That was, that was the big stuff that I can remember.

[00:13:04] Charity Gates: [00:13:05] Yeah. So off of that, if you had any advice for yourself back in law school, what advice would you give in this moment in your life now? What would you say to yourself starting law school and going through it honestly.

[00:13:20] Erika Stallings: [00:13:20] Yeah, I definitely, well, a few things, I think the first one up top isI didn't treat law school as an intellectual exercise. I was like, okay, like I'm in law school to [00:13:30] get a job and get a Big Law job, right. So I just don't think I sort of treated it as like, also, this is like getting an advanced degree and really thinking about the theory behind the law, right. And it's interesting because you know, now as an adult, I have friends who have done their PhDs. I do have some friends who are actually like well-known people I'm thinking about criminal justice reform, which has made me go back and sort of rethink some of the things that I've read or learned in law school.

[00:13:53] So I'd say up top, look, if you were going to law school, it is an expensive endeavor. You are there to, you know, [00:14:00] secure employment prospects. But also engage with it and let it be the sort of intellectual advanced degree thing that it also is. So that's like my up top thing.  And I will also say, when I was a law student, I would meet lawyers, right, cause everyone tells you to network. And I wasn't necessarily good, or I didn't know what I was supposed to be doing with those contacts. So, what I will say is if you are a law student and you meet a lawyer and the lawyer is like, Oh, please reach out to me anytime. They're not just saying that.

[00:14:25] Now I'm a lawyer, right. And I do meet law students. When I genuinely give someone my number and [00:14:30] my email and I'm like, please reach out to me if you ever need anything. I mean it and so

[00:14:33]Charity Gates: [00:14:33] I can vouch for this audience members. Erika is a master networker and she is very efficient connection. Like she will connect you to the right people and even she is a great connector herself. So, I stand by that statement.

[00:14:50] Erika Stallings: [00:14:50] Yeah. Right. So, you know, I would say, I think I was always skeptical. Like, Oh, they're too busy, but they're not. If someone says, I want to help you, they mean it. And I think to that end, I would have asked for [00:15:00] more help. I actually like two years ago I started a nonprofit with some friends that's called the Black Big Law Pipeline. And so, what we do in that organization is we put on workshops and really we just provide, we're just there as like mentors and resources for law students and junior attorneys who are Black or trying to figure out how to navigate these firms. And when I think about all the stuff that I didn't know, right, that now, because I've been through it, or I have peers and we all share information and we share it with these law students. I'm like. I was out here operating like real [00:15:30] blind. So, so I would definitely say if you are a law student, I would definitely encourage you to find a mentor.

[00:15:38] And don't be afraid to like send a cold email to people who are alumni of your school, or just like reach out to people, you know, and be like, Hey, do you know? Right. because I think having people to sort of help you figure out how to navigate on campus interviews, how to pick a firm, how to succeed as a summer associate, how to like maintain contacts, thinking about clerking.

[00:15:55] There's a lot of, you know, sort of strategy that has to go into that. And so that was a really long [00:16:00] winded way of saying the takeaway message is like asking for help, right?  I mean, no one succeeds alone, but I think there are specific things about the legal industry and being a lawyer that make that particularly true.

[00:16:10] Right. You cannot do it by yourself. So just like start developing those mentor relationships as early as you can. Yeah. And just, just ask for help.

[00:16:21] Charity Gates: [00:16:21] Yeah. The legal field is such a people focused industry that you really have to have community and networks honestly for everything. [00:16:30] So now I want to get into kind of your career post-grad. So first you started out as a legal fellow at the Julliard school upon graduating from law school.

[00:16:40] How did you how did this opportunity come about and what made you start in a non-traditional role directly after graduating?

[00:16:49]Erika Stallings: [00:16:49] Yeah. So what made me start in a non-traditional role is that the economy was bad. So for more recent law students, or maybe law graduates who are listening to this, so basically what happened 2008, right. Well, [00:17:00] let me give, let me step back for a second. Before 2008 law firms had really exploded, right.

[00:17:05] They were bringing in huge classes. It was all this work from the banks. So, you might have like, incoming first year class of like a hundred associates. Right? And you just got them all doing doc review. They're just doing all the bank work. It's fine. Everything is very flushed. Firms were giving special bonuses on top of their regular bonuses in like 2006 or 2007, which is crazy.

[00:17:22] Charity Gates: [00:17:22] So the money was flowing?

[00:17:24] Erika Stallings: [00:17:24] There was a lot of money. 2008 happens, right? firms. I mean I [00:17:30] still like firms closed, like firms that were like hundred-year-old firms closed. Right. Which is crazy. So basically, so basically what a lot of firms did is write for people who were like incoming classes of like 2009, 2010, 2011.

[00:17:43] They were like, we know that we will eventually need you, but we don't really know when we'll need you. So, we will pay you a reduced portion of your salary to go into public interest work, right. So, I started at a firm called Proskauer and that's what happened. They you have an offer to join the firm.

[00:17:58] We don't anticipate we'll need you [00:18:00] until a year from now. You're supposed to start because work is slow. So, take this $60,000 and go do something else and come back in like a year. And Proskauer has a special relationship with the City of New York Legal Department, because the former head of the former corporation council head of corporation council was and now is again a Proskauer partner.

[00:18:18] So they were sending people to go work in the City of New York Law Department. And I was like, I know I eventually want to be an IP entertainment attorney. I need to use this time to get experienced in that area. So, I actually just started [00:18:30] cold sending out my resume to legal departments at entertainment companies, cultural centers, et cetera.

[00:18:36] And it just so happens that the general counsel of the Julliard school, you know, responded to me and we interviewed, and she was like, yeah, if you want to spend your deferral here, deferral year here that'd be great. So, the reason I started my career at a non-traditional role was really sort of dictated by the market and the economy, but it was a really great experience.

[00:18:54] Charity Gates: [00:18:54] Of course. Now was the Juilliard GC at the time, a Georgetown alum as well, [00:19:00] or?

[00:19:00] Erika Stallings: [00:19:01] No, actually, I don't remember where Laurie went to school. Laurie has an interesting story. She had started there working in the jazz department. She'd gone to law school at night. And then when she graduated, they liked her so much. They didn't want her to leave. So, they created the role of general counsel for her. Laurie is actually now a president of a college, one that I cannot remember, but yeah, she's great a Black woman.  I mean, I, I literally sent my resume, to probably like, you know, MTV. Whatever, whatever [00:19:30] entertainment companies and cultural centers were around in New York City, I just was like, Hey, here's my resume. Here's my background. You know, I have this deferral year. I can work for free.

[00:19:39] You try to live in New York for free.

[00:19:40] Charity Gates: [00:19:40] Yeah, that's a major feat.  So, let's fast forward to now you're assistant GC of Music Product at Facebook.  Can you describe your current position and how you landed a job there?

[00:19:55] Erika Stallings: [00:19:56] Yeah, so, well, I'll talk about I landed the job first. [00:20:00] Right? So, it goes back to what I was talking about earlier in the interview which is really the importance of networking. So probably at the top of this year so top of 2020 I had been in my prior role at BMI. BMI, we license the public performance right in music.

[00:20:14] So, I've been there for like two years and I was sort of thinking about, okay, am I on the path to promotion? Is my title and my salary sort of like matching with the years that I know that I have in the industry. And if I didn't necessarily feel like it was, So I was like, I'll simultaneously see what else is out there while also trying to push for a [00:20:30] promotion. And so, I participated in a woman's leadership development program this year through the 92nd Street Y in New York City and the Women in Power Fellowship. So, in April I had reached out to one of the mentors who works at Facebook, she's head of consumer products.

[00:20:44] And I was like, you know, you're a Black woman, like, is Facebook, is it a good place, right? Is it a place where, you feel like you can do your work and thrive and be accepted? And she was like, no actually has a really great corporate culture. So, she connected me with someone who used to be a lawyer who now works on partnerships for [00:21:00] Instagram.

[00:21:00] And then when the role that I now have opened that person put in an internal referral for me. And then... so I ultimately report to the head of the Music Legal and the head of Music Legal had been partner in a firm with a mentor of mine, right. So, I sort of basically... Once I had started my first round, I was like, Oh, I really want this job.

[00:21:17] So I started putting in like the full court press. I reached out to my mentor and I was like, Oh, I know, you know, this person who's hiring for this role. Can you say good things about me? Right. I, and I sort of did that strategically with all the people I knew who had [00:21:30] connections to people on the interview team.

[00:21:31] Right. So, by the time I got to my final interview, it wasn't like a question of whether I was going to get it. It was more like; okay let's feel each other out. So yeah, that was probably like the best example of utilizing your network. so, in terms of what I actually do. We know Facebook is a huge company. And so, the legal department in particular is very specialized, right? It's very organized by what they call like subject matter expertise. So I work on the legal music team, which we have a team of attorneys who are going out and securing our music licensing deals with labels and [00:22:00] publishers in the United States and across the globe.

[00:22:03] And then I work on a team it's myself and my boss. So, we are a product counsel. And so what that means is anytime one of the Facebook, what we call the family of apps, which is an Instagram, WhatsApp, Facebook, or any of the features on that, right? Anytime that they are thinking about or planning to incorporate music we are sort of counseling them and letting them know like what both, what our contractual obligations are due to our like  uh, label and publishing agree, and also like flagging other, you know, copyright or... so let me make one thing clear. Right? My [00:22:30] background is I'm a copyright and trademark attorney, I definitely know enough to sort of like issue spot and be like, Oh, this is a problem we need to bring in other people.

[00:22:36] But again, because Facebook is so segmented, right? I'm doing the issue spotting, and then I may bring in someone from IP counseling. I might bring in someone from privacy. I might bring in someone from competition, right.

[00:22:46]Charity Gates: [00:22:46] And this is outside counsel you said? Or?

[00:22:48]Erika Stallings: [00:22:48] No, this is all so this is all internal, right.

[00:22:50] Oh, wow.

[00:22:51] So let's say like, you know, one of the big things that a place like Facebook or any of the tech platforms, right, is that you have to have ways to detect infringement on the [00:23:00] platform. Right. We have a proprietary software that we have developed for that, but, you know, so if something is coming up with that where I'm just like, okay, well I know like our contract says, we need to incorporate rights manager, but I'm not the expert on rights manager.

[00:23:10] Let me like also bring in the attorney who's like the lead for our RM program. Right. So, I know that that part is covered. So Facebook recently launched and, well, I guess not recently, it was in July they launched premium music videos. At the time of this interview,

[00:23:25] I've been at Facebook for three months. But I've done some work on our premium music, video products [00:23:30] obviously Reels, which is on Instagram and is our sort of TikTok answer to TikTok. It's a really music intensive products. So, yeah, it's also just very interesting to see, you know, one thing I like about the role is that because we work on products across all of Facebook is you just really get to see.

[00:23:46] You get like really interesting insight into all the different product teams at Facebook, you know, sort of how things are prioritized how all these things sort of like flow together. It's just a really interesting job. And then we work really closely with the music [00:24:00] business development teams and music partnership teams.

[00:24:03] And also just like getting that insight into things that are going on in the industry, like what the industry cares about with respect to social media platforms. It’s also just been really for the past three months, just like a really great learning experience right. And part, the reason I took this job is because I do think social media and tech is where music is going in terms of, you know, discovery and providing artists with another way to make money.

[00:24:24] And so I'm also just really fortunate to be at a company or one of the companies that is, [00:24:30] is really pushing that. Yeah.

[00:24:31] Charity Gates: [00:24:32] Right. That's great. We're recording this podcast in 2020 during a global pandemic and you started a new job. How do you think the lockdown quarantine has impacted your transition, um, from one job to the next?

[00:24:49] Erika Stallings: [00:24:49] Yeah. I mean, it is, it's certainly challenging to start, I think, any new job and to do it when you're not in the office and you're not with people. I do think that [00:25:00] Facebook has done a really good job of sort of onboarding. And I think that they care a lot. One of our deputy GCs actually just reached out to me and was like, you know, I'd love your thoughts about what went well, what didn't go well, right.

[00:25:10] So we can sort of continue to refine that experience since we will. We're not scheduled to reopen until at least July of 2021. Um, yeah, I will also say that, like, it's not the same, but I do think as a team, we do a lot of happy hours. We do a lot of team meetings, so I think, the socializing that would normally happen [00:25:30] in the office.

[00:25:30] We're trying to do some of it. But I will say that I am very eager to get back into an office. I mean, I really miss working in an office.

[00:25:39] Charity Gates: [00:25:39] Human connection is the main, the main ingredient to all this that's really lacking.

[00:25:46] Erika Stallings: [00:25:46] Yeah.

[00:25:47] Charity Gates: [00:25:47] Something that's involved in attorneys' daily work is writing. Although this writing is typically not for their own sake, but you've written for various publications, such as O Magazine, the New York [00:26:00] Times among countless others.

[00:26:02] How did you get connected and find time for these writing opportunities?

[00:26:06] Erika Stallings: [00:26:07] Yeah, so I guess if there's a theme of the interview, the theme of the interview is. Using your network effectively. So, I'll answer that, and then I'll answer that question. I'll come back.  I stopped working at a large law firm in 2017 at the end of 2017. I started my in-house career in 2018.

[00:26:21] So the upside of being in-house house, right? Is that you just have more time?   I went from always being stressed, like kind of worrying somebody might send me billable work on the weekend, right? [00:26:30] Really just never working on the weekend and mostly being able to leave my office at like six mostly. So, when I moved to an in-house role, I was like, okay, I know I want to like, get back into writing again. And now I have time. So, let me reach out to some people I know who write. And like, I'm very, very lucky in that. Like, I have this group of friends who like I met like five years ago and now like all of them are famous.

[00:26:56] It's like I have like two really good friends who write for the Atlantic. [00:27:00] my friend Eve who actually introduced me to my fiancé writes for Marvel Comics among like five other amazing things that she does.

[00:27:07] Charity Gates: [00:27:07] Is this the infamous Eve Ewing?

[00:27:11] Erika Stallings: [00:27:11] Oh yeah! That is the infamous Eve Ewing. Yeah who, you know, to me, I'm like, yeah, you're my friend and the person who connected with my fiancé. So, it's, that's also weird. Cause it's like, she is she is legitimately famous. So, I sent an email probably like the beginning of 2018. Oh. And So, Vann Newkirk [Vann R. Newkirk II] is a really good friend of mine who writes for the Atlantic.

[00:27:28] Until [00:27:30] the top of 2018, I had sent an email to like Eve and Vann my friend Josie Duffy, Josie Duffy Rice who is the president of The Appeal.

[00:27:38] Charity Gates: [00:27:38] Yeah, I just met her sister who owns the For Keeps bookshop in Atlanta.

[00:27:44] Erika Stallings: [00:27:44] Ohh Rosa. Yeah. The books. Yeah.  So, I'm like, you know, Oh, so let me give you this. Let me put this in context. Right. I'm leaving out some important context. Back in 2015, Eve, Josie, Vann, and a couple of other writers, we had a writing website, it was called Seven Scribes. And [00:28:00] it was really great.

[00:28:00]And then

[00:28:01] Charity Gates: [00:28:01] Gosh, amazing title. That's awesome.

[00:28:03]Erika Stallings: [00:28:03] Kind the like the way, like when I was a band, right. Everybody goes solo, the band can't stay together.

[00:28:08] Charity Gates: [00:28:08] Right.

[00:28:09] Erika Stallings: [00:28:09] Right. Because everyone just got kind of too busy to do this thing. And we were because we were all doing it on the side. It was really like a labor of love.  So that's how we all know each other.

[00:28:16] I had written like one or two things for Seven scribes. And so, I was like, Hey, you guys, like, I think I'm really wanting to get back into writing. So, you know, if you guys know anybody who's looking for writers, or if you have any thoughts, you know, let me know. And at the end of [00:28:30] 2017, Vann had gotten an award as like a top.

[00:28:32] I think he was like the top 30 under 30 writer, or I can't remember the award. But the person who gave him the award was the editor of O Magazine. And so, they had decided like in the beginning of 2018 that they wanted to a really big story about Black women and health inequalities. So, Lucy, emailed Vann and was like, Hey, I want to do a story and I want like a Black woman to write it. Do you know, a Black, a good black woman writer? And he was like, yeah, Erika can do it. So, I get this email from this woman at O [00:29:00] Magazine who was like, yeah, Vann Newkirk gave us your name and said that you would be interested in writing a magazine story for us.

[00:29:06] And I was like, and I had never written anything of that length or intensity. And I was like, all right, sure. I'll make it work. So that's how I wound up writing my first story for O Magazine, which was published in October 2018. Um, and it, it was about racial health disparities impacting Black women.

[00:29:22] I will say for anyone who's listening, who's interested in sort of like that magazine writing process. It is a process. Like I think I [00:29:30] pitched that story and went in and met with the editors. I want to say maybe in like May yeah, it was like April or May. And then just by the time, you do all the interviews, you do the edits and the fact-checking. And then it has to be, it has to be finalized a month before it goes to print, right, so they can actually print it.  That was really a learning experience. But Corey, who well, sadly O Magazine does not print anymore. Right. They had their last print issue this month in December, but I have a really good relationship.

[00:29:55] We've just developed a really good relationship. So, because we have that relationship right then I have, I've actually written [00:30:00] for the magazine in 2019 and in 2020. So that was all relationships.  New York Times is so I wrote for the New York Times last year, I had an op-ed about the need to increase genetic counseling in the Black community.

[00:30:12] That was a little bit of a networking in the sense that like Jennifer Parker, who's no longer there, who was like a great editor. I know Jen through some friends in my home life to Yale, but I can't remember if Jen went to Yale or I just know her through those connections. But I had met Jen at an event a couple of years ago.

[00:30:29] And Jen has just, [00:30:30] was very focused during her time, her tenure at the Times on increasing the amount of Black writers who appeared in the op-ed pages. And this is something, I think people should also remember like rejection is not the worst thing. Right? Cause there had been a couple of other times I had pitched Jen and it just was not It was not the right thing. Right? But we kind of, I just kept trying until we found the thing that was like the right thing to work on together, which happened to be this hereditary cancer piece. So, it was really kind of just like a combination of, I was at a place in my life where I had more [00:31:00] time and I let people know, Hey, I have more time.

[00:31:02] So like, will you please help me get gigs or helped me find writing opportunities? Um, But I also subscribe to a number of really great newsletters. So, one is Study Hall. Study Hall, basically every Wednesday sends you like around up of editors who are looking for stories. They have a really great editor database if you just ever want to pitch.

[00:31:21] I also subscribe to this newsletter called Opportunities, which comes out twice a week. It's the same thing, right? It just goes on Twitter and it finds all the editors who are looking for [00:31:30] who are looking for pitches. And also I talked to a lot of people and kind of like my philosophy is if I hear something and I can't stop thinking about it, that's usually a sign that there's an idea to be explored there that is worth writing about if that make sense.

[00:31:43] Charity Gates: [00:31:43] Yeah, that's an incredible story. I love that. And one of the pieces you wrote  through Medium's Zora kind of had a viral moment called "When Black Women Go From Office Pet to Office Threat" detailing Black women's [00:32:00] experience in corporate spaces. Can you describe this phenomenon to the audience and what you identify as your experience working in corporate spaces as a black woman?

[00:32:11] Erika Stallings: [00:32:11] I think that story is an example of what I was talking about. Right. So, I had read this Harvard Business Review, which everyone should read it. Harvard Business Review in 2020. Yeah. At the end of 2019, they did this five-part series on why Black employees and Black executives still haven't really advanced in corporate America.

[00:32:29] It's [00:32:30] very good. And one of the footnotes like literally it was a footnote was like, well, Black women often experience challenges in corporate settings because they experienced a phenomenon not as pets at threatened. So, what pet to threat is, is this idea of, so let me make one thing clear, right?

[00:32:44] Pet to threat actually happens to all women. The way that it plays out for Black women, right, is specifically unique because of the intersection of race and gender. So Black women often come into organizations and when they come into the organizations, they are treated as pets or they are treated in a child-like [00:33:00] fashion, right. And in particular, an organization may pat themselves on the back and is like, oh, look at us we're so great. We're bringing this black woman. We're so progressive. Right. And so, they're not valuing that person for their resume and their accomplishments, they're sort of valuing her as like an object or they just don't treat the person, what sort of professional deference they should have. But then what often happens, particularly as a Black woman comes into an organization and she gains confidence, she learns the organization and she starts to push back, she morphs into a threat, right. And so, then you see the Black woman and she gets, she gets undermined [00:33:30] and sometimes eventually is pushed out of the organization. So that that's like the pet to threat phenomenon. Right. And when I read it, it really resonated with me  so much because I... that had happened to me in my career and I didn't have the words to describe what was happening to me. It's when I thought it just sort of like magically resonated with me.

[00:33:48] Right. And the woman who developed this theory, her name is Kecia Thomas. She is a professor. She was at the University of Georgia. I think she recently moved. And what, she developed this sort of theory [00:34:00] because she was participating in a leadership development for women professors. And when they would all get together and share stories, all of them were having this sort of similar experiences of... oh right. When they were about to be up for tenure or about to be made department chair, you know, all of a sudden, colleagues who have been mostly collegial, were now sort of like turning on them or undermining them in various ways. Right. So that's how she sort of developed this theory.  At my first law firm you know, I really felt that way. Really. I felt like I came in, I was really ambitious, I really wanted to just [00:34:30] like hit the ground running and people would just like, be patient, be patient, be patient.  But I would see, you know, my white classmates, particularly like the white guys, right, they were already like doing motions, taking depositions and I was still doing doc review and basic research. And I was kind of, sort of always just like pushing back, pushing back, pushing back, being told I was impatient. And so, you know, eventually I left that firm, right. And so now I sort of realized like, and I spent a lot of time being like, Oh, I didn't navigate this situation well, or maybe I was too impatient. And I kind of realized, like, I think a lot of [00:35:00] organizations, but particularly large law firms, because they have historically been so white.

[00:35:04] We know there are very few Black women associates and Black women partners in these places. Period. I think they just don't know how to handle. I think they don't know how to handle the talent or ambition that comes in vessels that are not the ones that they are used to seeing. Right. So, when they are presented with a really ambitious, bright, young, Black woman attorney, they just don't know what to do. And I'm framing it that way not to discount like the role that racism plays in this, because I do think racism is a [00:35:30] huge part of it. But I think some, you know, they just kind of were just like, Oh, we know, you know, we don't know what to do with this person.

[00:35:35] Right. So, let's just go back and default to investing in the white guy who reminds us of our son as the thing we have been doing for hundreds of years. Right. So, yeah, that was really long winded.

[00:35:45] Charity Gates: [00:35:45] No, this is like a story that is repeated over and over and over again, for lack of a better word to say.

[00:35:53]Erika Stallings: [00:35:53] I just think about it a lot, because you know, one thing that I have been thinking a lot about since the summer when everyone's sort of [00:36:00] now wanting to reckon with the race is I don't think white people realize that they engage in identity politics. Like people are like, Oh, Black people, you're playing the race card. You're engaging in identity politics. I'm like, white people engage in identity politics. It's just that you're the majority. And that's how it's always been. So, we don't call it that. Right. But. I really think white people need to understand that, when you, your law firms are like 90% white, that's not race neutral.

[00:36:22] You've chosen to make an organization that is 90% white like that in and of itself is engaging in a sort of politics. [00:36:30] yeah. So yeah, I mean sort of like building you know, the thing that's so sad, not sad. I don't want to say sad. Right. I, I think that is very interesting. So, Pet to Threat came out in January of 2020.

[00:36:41] And because I, you know, one of the things you get when you write for Medium is every week you get an email, that's like, this is how many people look at your piece or pieces. And like, I can always tell when something bad has happened to a high-level Black woman, because I'll get this email that was like a huge spike and the amount of people who are reading the story.

[00:36:56] Right. So, on the one hand, I'm really happy that the story went [00:37:00] viral. I'm happy that it got a lot of attention. It was actually cited in a Vox piece this summer because there was like a sort of racial reckoning at Refinery29 and a lot of people cited to it. Right. And now we're seeing what's happening right now with the woman at Google who was head of AI. Right. So, my email this morning was like, you got 2000 plus views on it. I was like, all right. Cause a bad thing has happened. Right. So, I also think that that the virality of this piece really to me reflect s that I don't think anyone is doing smart, consistent reporting on Black women in the [00:37:30] workplace.

[00:37:30]I think when articles are written, Black women are often framed as sort of like dysfunctional or being a source of the problem. So like a big thing for me, like when I write is, you know, cause sometimes people are like, Oh, do you write this in the hopes that like white people read it and change their minds?

[00:37:43] I'm like, no, I don't, don't want to sound mean. I'm like, I don't care if white people read it or not. That's not who I'm writing to. Right. Like I write so, so like black women feel seen and feel heard because I just don't think that happens a lot. And to actually, and then I'll stop to connect this all back to law school, when I was in law [00:38:00] school.

[00:38:00] So I was in law school in 2007, 2008. It was like acceptable for mainstream publications to write these articles about how dysfunctional Black women were, with dating. Right. Like I would pick up the Post and it would be like Black women are never going to get married. Right. Nobody wants you.

[00:38:12] Charity Gates: [00:38:12] I remember those headlines. Yeah.

[00:38:15] Erika Stallings: [00:38:15] Looking back on it, I'm just like, I can't believe this was acceptable.

[00:38:18] And what's interesting is now like, you know, white women are now not getting married. Or the marriage rates among white women are dropping. But when that happens, it's like, oh my God, this is a cultural phenomenon that needs to be [00:38:30] investigated. Like people make careers off of investigating that phenomenon and if it was Black women, it was just like y'all are undesirable and dysfunctional. So, I had been talking about that with people too, right. So, I just really aim when I write to write in a loving way and not in a, Oh, what's wrong with. I think, you know, Black women as a whole are really great and really smart, and we're dysfunctional We go into organizations that are that's functional.

[00:38:53] Charity Gates: [00:38:53] That's the key!

[00:38:54] Erika Stallings: [00:38:54] That's the key. So.

[00:38:56] Charity Gates: [00:38:56] Yeah, that's the key there. So, you kind of mentioned this [00:39:00] and I'll try to wrap it up a little bit. But you're an advocate for women's health and preventative care as a BRCA awareness advocate. How did you get involved in this arena and what impact has it had on your own life?

[00:39:15] Erika Stallings: [00:39:15] Yeah. And I, sorry, I know I'm, I will yap all day, so I'll try to also be sort of quick with my answer.

[00:39:21] Charity Gates: [00:39:21] That's okay.

[00:39:21]Erika Stallings: [00:39:21] Yeah. And actually, I guess this sort of story brings a lot of things that we have talked about in this interview together. So, my mom has had breast cancer twice. My mom was a [00:39:30] two-time breast cancer survivor, and she's fine now my mom's been in remission for the second time. Actually this, this is like, there is 13 years as of this December actually. So, my mom had cancer the first time in the early nineties. And this was before there was research that there are genetic mutations that can elevate your risk of cancer.

[00:39:48] Then my mom had cancer again, my senior year of college. And so, because I was in school at UNC Chapel Hill, my mom was like, Oh, let me get treated at UNC chapel Hill, which is what's known as an NCI designated cancer center, right, [00:40:00] which means it's a very high quality of care for cancer treatment. And that's when she got genetic testing and learned that she carried a BRCA 2 mutation.

[00:40:08] And for listeners who don't know what that is, all of us, everybody has BRCA 1 and BRCA 2 genes. And when they function normally, they actually make proteins that help to prevent cancer. But in individuals like my mom and like myself that have mutations in BRCA 1 or BRCA 2 they're not working.

[00:40:25] Right? So, our chance of developing breast cancer, ovarian cancer, colon [00:40:30] cancer, pancreatic cancer, and melanoma goes up exponentially. Right? And you've probably heard about BRCA because of Angelina Jolie. But the current statistics that, if you have a BRCA mutation you have about roughly 80% lifetime chance of developing breast cancer.

[00:40:43] And if you, and it's you pass it onto your children. So, if you have it you have a 50% chance of passing it on to your children, and it can be passed from male to female and female to male. So, I'm I had known since 2007, had a possibility of having a BRCA mutation. And then in 2014, I decided to undergo [00:41:00] genetic counseling and testing and learn that I had inherited it from my mom. And due to my family history, it was recommended that I have a preventative mastectomy.

[00:41:09] Pretty much as soon as possible. So, I ultimately underwent one in December of 2014. But, again, going back to all the things we've talked about. So, I get this diagnosis and I like immediately go on the internet. And I like, I want to find stories or just information. And there are just like none from Black women. And I'm like, Oh, well, Black women get a lot of breast cancer I know that I am not the only Black woman to [00:41:30] have faced or lived with BRCA 2 mutation. So that's actually the first time I ever wrote anything. I wrote something for Jezebel in 2014 just about my experience with BRCA, both as like a Black woman, as someone who did not have children yet was not married, who had just got out of a relationship. And yeah, I wrote it and I was like, Oh, that was cool.

[00:41:48] I'll probably, hopefully never write again. So actually, this is another takeaway, right? You actually don't ever know who is looking at the stuff that you do. So, you should just do things that you love or care about and just do [00:42:00] them. So, I wrote that piece and then like a year. Yeah, like a year later I get this email from someone who's like, hi, I work at this research center at the University of Pennsylvania called the Basser Center for BRCA. And the Basser Center it's a research center at U Penn and the only thing they do is research BRCA-related cancers. And the goal is to eventually come up with a vaccine, for people like myself who carry mutations. But the people who started the center are actually based in Manhattan. It was started by the current president of the Blackstone Group and his [00:42:30] wife. They've given $55 million to fund the center.

[00:42:33] So I get this email and it's like, Oh, read this article you wrote and it's so good.  Like kind of personalize or break it down in this way, you know. And so like, would you like to meet with the people who founded it? They live in New York City. We'd love to talk to you about you know, stuff that, if you want to volunteer with us.

[00:42:48] So that's actually how that kind of happened. And like for myself, as someone who reads a lot and does a lot of research, right?  So, I volunteer with the Basser Center and I had just also done a lot of reading on my own about racial disparities and [00:43:00] access to genetic counseling and testing.

[00:43:01] And so for me, I feel like, and this sounds cheesy. I kind of feel like it's great being a lawyer. I like working at Facebook. I make a lot of money. It's dope! But I feel like my highest value add in like my highest value and my highest calling is talking about racial disparities and hereditary cancer. So, I volunteer with the Basser Center, I just launched a project with them called Black in BRCA. The goal of which is to provide tailored information to Black individuals about hereditary cancer, how to do a [00:43:30] family history collection featuring patient stories. I mean, hopefully eventually a scholarship to fund more Black genetic counselors.

[00:43:38] And then I do all the writing and stuff too. I'm hoping to, like, write a book or work on a book proposal next year. So yeah, I just, I don't know. I just think it's really important. I think Black women die. Well, we can have a whole other podcast. Right? I think, I think the way that America feels about Black people is most reflected in Black people's health.

[00:43:56] Right. And those statistics are bad. So [00:44:00] this is like my work and I feel like it's really important.

[00:44:02] Charity Gates: [00:44:02] That's incredible because my own family from my personal life my maternal side has a history of cancer and it's definitely a genetic thing because basically several members of my grandmother's family have had cancer in the past. And we kind of like ignore these things.

[00:44:20] And of course, like Southern culture, you don't talk about certain things, but those are the things that we need to be talking about so that we can help each other and bring awareness to [00:44:30] these disparities. So that's incredible work that you're doing.

[00:44:33] Erika Stallings: [00:44:33] You know, I'm going to email to you ask you this.

[00:44:36] Charity Gates: [00:44:36] Yes, you should. You should because I, I had a question for you about that too.

[00:44:41] So yeah, offline, we should definitely talk.  So, with all that advocacy, you're talking about bringing awareness, where do you see your career in the next decade? Like in terms of building legacy and.

[00:44:54] Erika Stallings: [00:44:55] Yeah. That's a good question. Right? Cause I you know there have been times in my career where I have totally thought [00:45:00] about walking away from being an attorney, but I actually I still enjoy practicing law. And I do get a lot out of it. So that's, you know, I don't know. Cause right.

[00:45:07] A decade from now I'll be 45 which feels so old. I also have a thing about aging because I don't think black people get to age gracefully in this country. So, I have like, I have like a fear of a phobia about aging. Anyway.

[00:45:18] Even

[00:45:19] Charity Gates: [00:45:19] though Black don't crack though. Like we do look good when we age, but they don't allow us to.

[00:45:26] Erika Stallings: [00:45:26]  I think in a decade, I mean actually like a dream career of mine, which is just [00:45:30] like really hard to break into because it's so like relationship driven is I would really love to be like a philanthropy consultant advisor you know, to like, to wealthy people, you know, to athletes, entertainers, right.

[00:45:42] Basically saying like, Oh, if you care about X cause, here's how you craft a strategy around that. So that is something I would really like to be doing maybe like a decade from now, you know. Maybe having like my own business that does that. Or, you know, alternatively, I think if I stay in the legal fields also sort of thinking about the [00:46:00] ways, like I think intellectual property law is really interesting cause I think it intersects with race in really interesting ways. In thinking about maybe working on that problem. So, I guess the short answer is, you know, hopefully a decade from now one I'll be like running something of my own, whatever that is. Or I'd like to be running something that is my own thing.

[00:46:17]But probably something that's more like policy focused. The biggest shift. For me over the past couple of years has been really not so much thinking about sort of individual interventions and really thinking about like systemic interventions, right? Like, [00:46:30] you know, there's just so little individuals can do in the face of sort of all the discrimination and problems of this country.

[00:46:36] And so how do you build better systems? How do you build better institutions? So that's probably where my work will end up in the next decade is something I focus on that.

[00:46:44] Charity Gates: [00:46:44] Yeah, I could talk to you forever about all your, your, your future dreams and you just have such an incredible trajectory.  

[00:46:53] As a final question. I like to end each episode with who is your Sistah in Law? And this [00:47:00] can be a fellow colleague, a mentor, your bestie from law school or any legal queen that you're inspired by. It could be someone you don't even know. So, who's your Sistah in law?

[00:47:10] Erika Stallings: [00:47:10] Yeah. Oh man! Can I kind of want to cheat and do like two? So I'm I will. So the first one is Kimberley Harris. Kimberley Harris is a Black woman; she's worked for Obama. She is now the…she's general counsel and EVP at NBCUniversal. And I'm really fortunate. She reached out to me last year because she saw something I wrote [00:47:30] about Black women and debt and we had lunch and Kimberley's just like one of the most impressive people I've just ever met. But not only is she really impressive, she's so humble.

[00:47:38] Like I was so taken aback that she took like, almost like an hour and a half out of her day. Cause I'm like, I know you're on like running, you're doing like very important things. Right. So yeah, I just, I, I really admire her because like I said very incredibly smart, very impressive resume, but also like very down to earth.

[00:47:54] So yeah, that's one. And my second one is someone who works on the [00:48:00] nonprofit that I mentioned Black Big Law Pipeline with me. Brittany McCants. So, Brittany is a senior associate at Goodwin Proctor. She specializes in ERISA and executive compensation law.  And so, we have gotten to be really good friends over the past couple of years through our work in this organization.

[00:48:16] And I just really admire her, you know, like one, I think if you're a Black woman who has made it that long in firms, like you must be doing something right. That's really hard. But she just has like a way, yeah. She just has a way of looking at stuff that like, I always appreciate people who make [00:48:30] me look at things in different ways. So yeah, those are, those are my two.

[00:48:33] Charity Gates: [00:48:34] That's so beautiful!  Thank you for joining us today, Erika. Can you share where the people can find you and how to read some of your fabulous written pieces?

[00:48:44] Erika Stallings: [00:48:44] Yeah, so I have a website that collects, you know, all of my work and, know, gets updated with events and stuff that I'm doing, um, Erika Stallings. It's Erika with a K. I'm also on Instagram, Erika underscore M underscore Stallings. And [00:49:00] I'm also tweeting way too much on my Twitter. My fiancé is like, oh my God, please stop tweeting.

[00:49:05] Like, he's like, he's like, you just be tweeting. But my Twitter

[00:49:08] Charity Gates: [00:49:08] 2020 is the year of tweets though. Cause we're like all stuck and like that's a very good form of communication, honestly.

[00:49:15]Erika Stallings: [00:49:15] My, my Twitter handle is Quidditch424. And I, I am currently working on a piece about racial health disparities in breast reconstruction that I'm excited about. And I'm hoping it at the beginning of next year to work on a piece about [00:49:30] racial disparities in Black women and access to fertility treatment.

[00:49:34] So yeah, there's some interesting stuff coming. I hope.

[00:49:36]Charity Gates: [00:49:36] Very nice. Thank you so much, Erika.

[00:49:39]Erika Stallings: [00:49:39] Thank you.

[00:49:40] Charity Gates: [00:49:41] I hope you found that discussion enlightening.  Please be sure to follow Erika on social media to hear more from her. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts make sure to subscribe and give us a review to let us know your thoughts.  As always share the podcast with anyone who you feel may benefit from [00:50:00] these discussions.

[00:50:01]And follow us on social media @sistahsinlaw on Instagram, @sistahsinlawpod on Twitter and like our Facebook page.  For a full transcript of today's episode, go to WWW dot sistahs in law dot org. That's spelled S I S T A H S I N L A W. Thank you for tuning in with me and stay tuned for our next Sistah in Law.

[00:50:27]Until then. Peace and love. 

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